Thinking a little differently, would there be a market for a British made frame in other countries?
I think On-One was exported to the Netherlands for a while, but am not certain how successfull that was.
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How much to build a steel hardtail in UK?
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Posted 2 years ago #
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Mike, this comment:
it's almost impossible to compete on labour costs because those will always be lower in emerging/developing markets than they are over here.
and this comment:
The UK govt sold the British manufacturing industry down the river a long time ago
Can't really go together. Either the Govt has done nothing to support British manufacturing jobs, (and the only way it could do that against low paid overseas workers would be to either keep UK prices artificially high, or suppress wages, neither would be popular)or it believes in the Free Market, and tries to build an economy that doesn't rely on making things. Look at Germany's struggle with the downturn.
This is global economics at its most basic, it is better, cheaper, easier to have these sorts of frames made in countries that have a manufacturing base capable of doing it. Try to start in the UK, you'd never get back your investment on set-up, or the frames would be too expensive if you did it through an existing company. So, in answer to the OP. No it isn't.
Posted 2 years ago # -
NickC, you can have that one. Far too heavy and boring a subject and too early in the morning to argue the toss about.
I think we agree on your final paragraph.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Let's take a step back here...you need to market a product that has a competitive advantage. In other words it is superior in a way the consumer recognises. There are lots of reynolds british built bikes/frames already on the market, why would anyone buy yours?
Posted 2 years ago # -
to reiterate... the same quality and the same price but made in the uk.
and the answer has been no all along.
Curtis are the closest case you could look at, they could have built their off the peg bikes in the UK. But they don't, they're made in the far east. If they could have built them in house for less than the cost of building them abroad they would have done.
Or to look at it another way, Dialled 853, cotic Soul, Thorn raven, etc all 853 (in places), all UK designed, all tiawan built (I think, certainly far east), all £380 (give or take a bit). Now if one of those manufactueres was making sufficient profit to be in a postion to cut prices, they would do. Otherwise (assuming they are all have the same costs and therefore making the same profits) one of the others would. Its back to the cash on the table, there is no cash on the table, becasue someone else would have taken it. Unless you'r suggesting that they are colluding and price fixing?
If you still don't believe the answer your getting, by all means draw up a business plan, go to the bank, hire a lockup, buy equipment, hire a welder, a machinist and a marketing guru and prove us all wrong.
Posted 2 years ago # -
could try to artificially peg the currency lower, thereby artificially inducing a competitive advantage?
Posted 2 years ago # -
[Mike at Dialled] In Taiwan, working in a factory/welding up bike frames is still seen as a good honest job. Over here, most people would consider that kind of work beneath them nowadays. That's just one reason why Taiwan has a thriving manufacturing industry and Brtain doesn't.
There are also plenty of people who'd be glad of the work. They'd still be dearer than doing it in Taiwan.
To me the obvious reason why we don't have a "thriving" manufacturing sector is that we have relatively expensive labour, so everything that can be mechanised has been. As an example, there are far fewer steelworkers in Sheffield than there were in the 70s or 80s, but more steel is produced.
To put it another way, welding things together isn't a good way of making a living in a country like the UK - once you've got the line set up, and the welder on the right settings, almost anyone can be trained to do it repeatedly. On the other hand, Brant's mate needs to be able to weld to make a living, but he also needs to understand the MSA rule book, a bit of physics and engineering, a few things about vehicle dynamics and be a skilled fabricator in order to make a decent roll cage.
Posted 2 years ago # -
The manufacturing that is most succesful in the UK is high-tech, high-value, low-volume stuff, and I can't see that changing for a while.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Apples and Oranges.
Posted 2 years ago # -
couldn't agree more Brant - one is built from Reynolds 631 in the UK and one isn't...
Posted 2 years ago # -
You have much to learn.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'm just adding a point before I have got through all of the thread. I just want to make a point about market price.
We have On-One steel frames at around the £150 mark, Blue Pig at the ~£250 mark, Kinesis Versa at £330ish, then Cotic Soul & Orange P7 at the £500 region. As I mentioned in an early post I had a quote from Rourke in the summer for a 625 (I think) at about £650 in a single solid colour with contrast panels.
So your UK fabricated frame has surely got to be saleable at less than that £650? Otherwise the only advantage is that you can buy the frame for immediate delivery with a pre-determined colour and fittings. Otherwise you are going to be too close to bespoke builders which will have the -ve of building time but the advantage of exact fittings you ask for and colours that you pick.
My feeling, and it is just assumptions and feelings is, that you will need to be at no more than a Soul in a decent steel. Maybe would not have to be 825 as the UK fab may be enough to sell an "inferior" steel at the same price.
In the very early days of Orange didn't they have the Clockwork that was outsourced and the Formula that was built by a bespoke UK builder?
As for the talk of costs of tools, jigs etc. That was why I agreed that a non-cycle industry steel fabricator may be the way to go. They will have a lot of common tooling and workforce with skills and capacity to produce the frames. If it's a one-man band I really don't think that you would be able to keep the price low.
One of the companies that I used when I was working is Watermark in Derby. They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I'll elaborate. The BJ frame is a really simple build for them. Not a low skilled thing, but fast and not hard for them to do. Skilled builders make for quick clean up on lugged builds like that. It uses simple lugs, readily available.
Sam's build really is quite different. Small batch. It's got an EBB. Disc mounts. Two tone paint. It includes carriage. Really funky lugs - see Sam has modern 1.125in steerer - that's hard to find and not cheap! Those will be cast lugs too, not cheaper pressed ones (I presume the BJ uses those).
I got offered an apprenticeship by Mr Jackson when I was 16, but I turned it down to take my A Levels. I wonder how it would have all panned out?
Posted 2 years ago # -
They are a good stainless fabricator and I'm sure they could manage bike frames easily. If they wanted to and had capacity.
Really, please, don't underestimate the complexities of jigging, fabricating and aligning a bicycle frame to acceptable tolerances.
Posted 2 years ago # -
I aren't Brant but they built machines for us that used a fair number of parts and on some of them as there were motorised moving parts they needed to be able to get alignment good and with good tolerances. I wasn't trying to say that this particular company could fab bike frames, and as I said there is a good chance they they wouldn't want to as well. But IME (which isn't massive by any means) there still are a number of SME fabricators in the UK, they do have good skills and may be able to do the job.
If you could get some proper CAD drawings done you could try ringing round and trying to get quotes for 20/50/100 off frames. If you could specify tubes to use and maybe any parts (BB,Head tube, cable guides/stops etc).
If I was serious about doing this I'd probably get some UK bespoke frames made up as prototypes to get the ride feel right. One at a time so that I could get the ride feel right with each iteration. Maybe lend one to STW or someone similar, friends etc to get their opinion. Once I was happy with a frame design I'd get it drawn up and then go out for tenders.
So at the end of the day you could lose 2 or 3 grand just prototyping and when and if you get quotes back find that it is economically not viable.
For me it'd definitely be a post lottery win project. Too much in debt and too cowardly otherwise.
Posted 2 years ago # -
so you can buy an off-the-peg, brazed and lugged road frame, built in leeds for £380 from bob jackson.
1. what's the quality of a bob jackson frame like?
2. does bob jackson have the ability and technical knowledge to produce a welded mtb frame?
3. if the answers to 1 & 2 are favouirable, how much would they charge?
EDIT; looking at the bob jackson website it all seems to be road bikes, so they either consider mtb to be the devils own work or the answer to question 2 is no.
EDIT2; or they don't see a market for uk built mtb frames!
Posted 2 years ago # -
or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Posted 2 years ago #
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or alternatively, can you buy a brazed and lugged road frame of camparable quality to bob jackson, built in china or taiwan and if so how much are they?
Lincolnshire Poacher?£245 without fork
although that has fancier lugs I think.
What he said ------^
Although as Brant said, not all luggs are created equal. And Fixie-inc (IIRC) are knocking out welded and painted 953 frames for £1000, and I don't remember them being made in the UK! Which I guess proves that brand/material kudous can be worth more than the frame!
[dribbling]
Mercian in Derby make dribble worthy XC bikes, If I won the lottery I'd get one (well, probably several) made up in subtle variations of the Paul Smith colours [/dribbling]So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
Posted 2 years ago # -
thisisnotaspoon - So in summary, identical frames, to make it in the UK is 50% more (at least).
ditto
Posted 2 years ago # -
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
To say that a UK company can't compete with the far-east in manufacturing is nonsense. HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
Posted 2 years ago # -
HOPE seem to shift a fair bit of kit, often competing against massive companies such as Shimano and SRAM.
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
Posted 2 years ago # -
There's only one problem stopping a UK built frame being a viable option and that's start-up capital.
Start-up is great. A sustainable business model is even better.
I think you'll find production overheads per unit relatively high.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Your thought process would work if you wanted to CNC this frame out of billet aluminium.
Sorry Brant I forgot that all that Hope do is have an un-skilled ludite throw a lump of aluminium into a cheap-as-chips CNC machine and out pops a complete disc brake, headset, wheelset. Each component fully built complete with all carbon, rubber and steel parts fitted ready to go. It must look like Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory at Hope.
Posted 2 years ago # -
cy - just out of interest, when you were trying to find a UK manufacturer how many frames were you asking them to build compared to how many frames you sell per year now?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Jim - i think he means (and rightly so) that you can't really compare Hope with Shimano or SRAM, different production techniques and approaches and business model.
Make sense?
Posted 2 years ago # -
C CNC machine is a CNC machine wherever it is in the world it will cost near enough the same.
R&D costs the same wherever you build the frame (bacause it will be in the UK)
The only think hope have to pay more in yorkshire than in tiawan is labour, and I'm guessing the average employee can make up quite a few brakes/hubs/headsets per hour, even bleeding takes a matter of seconds with the right kit (a vacumn hose). So as aproportion of their costs, its probably minimal.
Welding a frame takes much longer, and much more skill, and therefore costs more.
Posted 2 years ago # -
Are Pace frames made in the UK and are they more expensive than similar Tiawanese made frames?
Posted 2 years ago # -
Pace, Whyte etc are all made itn he far east (as far as I know). They seem to justify the higher costs with more intricate dropouts, tube shapes etc. I think Pace may paint in the uk, though.
Posted 2 years ago # -
cy - Premier Member
Just to stick my oar in at this late stage, I did quite a lot of research into doing things in the UK when I started Cotic, and there are plenty of people out there who could do it, but to be quite honest none of them were in the least bit interested. Anyone who can build bike frame materials to proper quality and tolerances is either doing motorsport or defence contracting. Both of these industries have vast quantities of money sloshing around them, and a habit of "JFDI, I need it tomorrow evening, here's the cash" type behaviour. I guess it's the high quality, low-volume thing in a nutshell, but basically nobody wanted the business.
I too know that there are people who have the capability to build frames in the UK, apart from butting tube, that's not in my sphere. The OP's point was given the changing economic weather maybe it could this make this more attractive to UK companies now. With lean and short run production taking over in the UK I can see the possibilities.
Posted 2 years ago # -
bob jackson replaced a tube and repainted a frame of mine it cost more than the price of a 456 which i later bought . And the 456 rode better . I couldnt care less where it was made as long as it rides nice and is a good price which seemingly isnt an option with uk built frames it one or other or neither lol. For the op im sure its possible but i imagine it would be hard for people to see past the price tag for the sake of a flag on the frame.im more interested in the guy who designed the frame than where it was put together ie id rather ride a brant/cy bike made abroad than a fancy new name new on the block but made in uk. Igmc
Posted 2 years ago # -
a no name brand will struggle to break into the market, especially if they are the same price or more than existing brands. With the price of an on-one or a cotic etc why would you buy a no name, un tested frame for more? to me on-one, cotic, 18-bikes etc etc are available with ease, have direct support (even on this forum) now you cannot get better than that, how much support do you see on forums from other companies? in a nut shell they have cornered the market! and tbh if it rides well, has a history of being good and reliable, has Uk support all at their low prices who really cares where it was actually built? now a lot on here have an on-one, in fact I would almost say it has a cult following on the 456.... small uk, personal service and support and very cheap to buy. fine its made in Taiwan, but how can you compete with that?
I dont think it is likely that you can shift 2 frames per day, every day? if £200k profit was that easy, others would have done it!
Personally I would not want to go head to head with cotic, on-one, orange or for that matter any other frame makers... trying to get a name for yourself above them would be nigh on impossible.
I think an assumption has been made, are your 1st frames going to be an instant success that ride perfectly and appear in top reviews? many designs will be ditched and it could take years to get a good design, even then it may not get any reviews never mind top test marks from MBUK, Singletrack, MBR etc all it would take is 1 bad review and game over.
Living the dream sounds great and should you try it. good luck, you will need it
Posted 2 years ago # -
Blimey I’ve wasted a long time reading this thread…
The debate is an old one now, and as much as people often like to state their support for “British Products” their personal beliefs are often significantly watered down when it comes to parting with more cash for a frame.
You simply will not produce a comparable product in the UK for the same price as the far east, I actually think the “British Brand – Far eastern manufacture” isn’t a bad business model when you’re trying to sell to a market where Value for money does actually count… Say what you like Dialled, Cotic, On-one, DMR, etc all sell products that meet both the functional AND cost expectations of their customers…Most of the sprouting on this thread have assumed an “All in house” approach which if you’re even going to attempt production of most products in the UK is a Non starter, to produce a batch of 100 frame you have to consider there is something in the region of 2000(?) individual operations (bending, mitring, welding/brazing, aligning, painting, etc) and whilst having a one stop shop for all of these quite different tasks would be nice those few that do exist and not really geared up for large batches (frame builders), what we do have in this country still are a few businesses that specialise in certain operations Machinists, sheet metal/tubing cutting and bending, fabricators, paint shops/platers. If you were going to try and batch manufacture a frame in the UK you would have to be mental not to try and source the different operations from different suppliers, the major advantages are you don’t have to locate skilled trained up labour, you don’t have to absorb the cost of production errors/reworks (suppliers is liable) you don’t have to layout money up front for tooling/machinery, you don’t have to find production premises (you may have to find storage though for the finished products), operations can be carried out in parallel/smaller batches to shorten lead times and get products to market faster. In short good procurement and delegation is what would give you a fighting chance of hitting a key price point with a UK manufactured bike frame.
The Major downside is of course that each business you deal with will add a margin to the services they provide but unless your start-up is incredibly well funded there is no way you could bring all the work required to manufacture something as complex as a bike frame under one roof from day one…
I’ve never worked in the bike industry but I have worked in manufacturing/engineering and I’ve yet to work on any product where all parts and processes were sourced from one location or business.
Of course all of the above manufacturing services can be found under one roof…. In Taiwan
Of course the first consideration is marketing, which is not just placing the odd advert or chucking up a website; But the primary function of establishing an actual market for the product, you might want a 650B Soft tail with an Eccentric BB but are there more than 3 other people on the planet who want one too? And if there is a demand what price point is it at? And does the “Made in the UK” label hold any sway with your target market? This should be your starting point, and sometimes there’s a gap in the market for a reason…
Posted 2 years ago #
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