4 bed detached and paying a fortune…

I expected, partly as I thought it would require people working together and partly H&S, that at least 3 people would be on site / up ladders.

I have one messy sod and a ‘lean to’ scaffold. He seems happy to just chuck everything on the floor from a great height scattering all kinds of crap, including nails, all over my lawn. Obvioulsy I’ve told him to be more careful but he seems to not give a toss.

There’s also the gable ends to sort and how the hell he will get to them is a mystery to me.

Questions –

Is it safe or indeed usual for a single bloke to be doing this type of job?
The chippy I had here yesterday said that these scaffold types had been banned – any truth in that?
Should I stop being precious about my lawns and kid/nail interface potential?

EDIT – used this form as came ‘recommended’

Not banned but rules were changed surrounding their use under the WaH Regs
The lone worker policy is the biggest part of it that you can use.
The RaMS must show how they are covering him, what measures are in place to monitor him, etc.

As him if he has a copy of the RAMS.
If he looks sheepish, then start getting worried, sounds baaaaad

He marked up the wiring of an integrated light that he removed with “brown wire on the rite side”. I doubt he’s heard of RAMS (neither have I!).

Captain Hindsight here.

These all seem like questions to have asked beforehand. As for paying a fortune, did you get other quotes?

Risk Assement & Method Statememt

I don’t know if it applies on domestic contracts, but on larger sites these days you need to have these in place before you start works.
Normally need a pasma certificate to build a tower scaffold, but not to use one that has been built up by someone else

Does he have a heavy “irish type” accent ?

Thanks to Captain Hindsight – did get other quotes and this was in the ball park. Mentioned paying a fortune as a thread appeared on here about similar jobs and I seem to be paying double what others had.

No accents other than the expected local one…

Sounds bodged. Parents had theirs done recently and paid good money. 4 guys turned up, scaffolding was erected all around the house, even for the sections you could easily reach on an A frame ladder so they could walk along and seat everything properly and fit guttering.

Personally, I wouldn’t care how he chose to do the job. If he wants to adopt unsafe practices, why would that be a problem to the customer?
If his work is poor, that’s different.

Time will tell on the quality of the work, and how clean he leaves the site, but generally if you struggle to reach things then you may cut corners etc.
Is it a one day job ? He might have been sent ahead to put a presence on site to keep the customer “happy” , or though that may well have backfired already 😆

revs – he expects to be here until end of week – I have my doubts.

Ecky – I booked this week so kids wouldn’t be here – if they were, the guy would have been told to get off site already. Lumps of mortar, wooden fascia boards with nails etc would be a problem to this customer! Flying through the air that is!

Somouk – any idea how long that team took for the job?

Having pointed to the highest part of the gable, which has a lower roof section below it, I asked him how he intended to get to that bit.

“yeah, I was thinking that – looks a bit high don’t it”!! What should I do with the body…?

IIRC there were 3 chaps doing next door’s. They definitely used a ladder for part of the gable ends as I let them put the end on my drive to get access, though I think they also had some scaffolding up.

What was the outcome on this ? Did he get the job finished to a good standard ?

RAMS pack for replacing fascia on a private job 😆 😆

RAMS pack for replacing fascia on a private job

Not quite a full RAMS but the HSE want a “Construction Phase Plan” completed.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/areyou/builder.htm

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis80.pdf

Check the address on the estimate is a real location on google earth,

ask to see their public liability certificates allows for work above head height, and all workers are covered,

as for throwing stuff down on lawn,they should pass it down, as wind can deflect sharp pieces of wood etc anywhere, and nails and other debris can impale the lawn and a few weeks latter find their way into a person using the lawn, found that out after poor tradesmen did a similar scarper and run job.

google the companies name to see if they have any bad or good reports.

Beware as they are working on the roof area, they may also remove slates/tiles and charge for new felting, batons etc seen this happen and customer had to pay up because he wouldnt have a watertight house and no gutters, the same group also came mob handed, 8 of them and one hammer and a few crowbars to remove facia boards.

Obvioulsy I’ve told him to be more careful but he seems to not give a toss.

Tell him to jog on then. You’re paying for his work and you’re not happy.

His approach to H&S is his own problem, but his approach to that is probably indicative as to his approach to his quality of work.

Otherwise, you’ll end up with a big bill, and probably still have to redo it.

As with the other thread, we had all fascias, soffits and guttering replaced on our four bed detatched in Surrey. Two guys, no mess and just over two grand. Great salesman too which is unusual, who bought round samples and models of what they’d do.

Deleted post about hse because I just cba

CBA? Is that more HSE stuff like RAMS?

OP employed a company to do the work as they came recommended .
Just because it’s now one guy doing a hash job doesn’t remove the legal requirements under HSE and/or CDM.
Just because it’s a “private job” doesn’t remove the above requirements either.
Considering the “skill set” that is supposedly here on this forum there’s some hugely naive and ignorant comments being made.
But then WAINS 🙄

Seriously hammy you would not expect a full rams pack for a private job such as this. Yes, it appears the chap he’s got doing the job is a bit of a dick, if he chooses to do the work in an “unsafe” manner then he’s even more of a dick. If it starts (which it seems to be) to put others at risk then yes it’s time to **** him off the job. Do you write up a full rams pack every time you go up a ladder at home, oh hang on you shouldn’t be using a ladder for that operation sir. The hse has improved and safeguarded construction workers lives hugely in some areas but there are others where it’s a huge joke. Common sense is still the best h and s imho 😉 and in this case it says he’s not up to the job.

Did you read the OP?
He’s employed a company to do the work.
They’ve sent one bloke.
So it’s not a “private job” in reality.
If I was hiring a single bloke then no I wouldn’t give a FF
He hasn’t so there should be the RaMS in place as you know.
Whether they furnish the OP with them or not doesn’t remove the requirement.
Pretty sure you can quote the exact same legislation as I could right now.
So for me – yes I’d require it in my hand or the guy would be bounced down the road and they wouldn’t see a penny.
In fact the guy would’ve been bounced on day one.
I’ve done it before and I’d do it again – no excuse for shit work from anyone be it a company, one man band or a labourer.

Do I write one for work at home?
No but then the law doesn’t apply unless I decide to employ myself to do the work does it.

No but then the law doesn’t apply unless I decide to employ myself to do the work does it.

I don’t think that’s true.

As longs no-one else is at risk at all,including members of the public etc, you can do what you want. If you are a sole trader with no employees, then there are no legal responsibilities for H&S.

e.g. If you have a business in an industrial unit and there is only you on site at all times, then there is no legal requirement for H&S measures.

He’s employed a company to do the work.
They’ve sent one bloke.

Which is a good point in itself. If the guy’s work isn’t up to scratch (cf. throwing stuff around), the place to complain is at the company. They might be blissfully unaware that he’s cutting corners.

gobuchul – Member
No but then the law doesn’t apply unless I decide to employ myself to do the work does it.
I don’t think that’s true.

As longs no-one else is at risk at all,including members of the public etc, you can do what you want. If you are a sole trader with no employees, then there are no legal responsibilities for H&S.

e.g. If you have a business in an industrial unit and there is only you on site at all times, then there is no legal requirement for H&S measures.

Theres no requirement for a written H&S Policy if you have under 5 employees.
HSE/HMRC can be very very vague on what does and does not constitute an “employee” though.
You can actually be prosecuted under legislation if you hurt yourself at work regardless if there is only you there.

HSaW Etc Act 1974

Section 2(1) “It shall be the duty of every employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable to do so, the health, safety and welfare at work of all his employees.” This is known as the Employers General Duty of Care.

Section 3 Employers must also protect non-employees who may be affected by their work.

Section 7 Employees must “take reasonable care for the health and safety of themselves and others who may be affected by their acts or omissions at work.”
Employees must co=operate with their employers in health and safety matters

You can actually be prosecuted under legislation if you hurt yourself at work regardless if there is only you there.

How? For example, you own the business as a sole trader with no employees. you remove a guard from a machine in your unit, that no-one else has access to and chop your arm off. What would they charge you with? Stupidity?

The HSAW Act talks only about employers and employees. As a sole trader you can’t “employ” yourself. There is no employer or employee.

You’d be surprised – even as a Sole Trader you can be prosecuted and plenty have been by the HSE.
You are still liable for your acts and omissions at work regardless if its you or 100 of you.
Your example of removing the guard would get you a prosecution as its a “reportable Incident”.

As a sole trader you are still required to verify whether you come under the very few exceptions.
The act was updated in 2005 and the law changed in 2015 – so you are not and cannot remove yourself from the requirements except under certain circumstances.

What the changes in Health & Safety regulations from 1st October 2015 means for the self-employed

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2015/9780111136980

From your first link:

From 1st October 2015, if you are self-employed and your work activity poses no potential risk to the health and safety of other workers or members of the public, then Health and Safety law will not apply to you.

That’s exactly the point I was making.

Forget all this Petty HSE bollocks. How good a job is he / has he done. Is he dead?

If you are not happy just call the company up and tell them. Ffs you lot like to overcomplicate the most simple things in life.

Edited out turnips. 😀

Check the definition of it though – very little gets past it into the “exempt”.
So your example of removing a guard puts you bang under the law.
Your work activity poses a risk.
You would be prosecuted under section 13 and 14.
“Duties imposed on persons in connection with work activities
The 2005 Act also ensures that individuals, who are neither an employee nor a manager or director, can also owe health and safety duties. Section 14 imposes a duty on all persons not intentionally, recklessly or without reasonable cause, to interfere with anything provided for securing health and safety at work, or otherwise place at risk the safety of persons in connection with work activities. This is a very broad duty and has been used to secure convictions against individuals on a number of occasions, such as where safety equipment is removed or tampered with, resulting in an accident, or where failure by a site foreman to ensure proper warning signs on road works resulted in a collision.”

The law was changed to allow less “red tape” day to day for small businesses/sole traders – not to remove the responsibility for your actions.

CDM regulations when changed in 2015 places more obligations on contractors working for domestic clients. Regardless on the size of the job they will apply.
Not sure if there have been any court cases yet tried on this,they normally go for breaches of work at height etc.

OK – wasn’t expecting this to take off! Had a good moan to the company about how this guy operates and they promised to ‘have words’. His supposed early start Friday didn’t materialise – I suspect as he knew I had to leave for the weekend.

Came back tonight to find a fence panel off (obvioulsy had been into my neighbours garden without permission), a couple of boxes of crap on the driveway, oil stains on the drive, nails on the drive and front lawn and scattered pieces of debris still pretty much everywhere. That said, I feared for worse.

Still some dry verges (I think that’s what they are called) to put on so he’s obvioulsy planning to come back. I paid 5k for this! Its the 2k type of figure that is repeated above that annoys me so much. I reckon 500 quids worth of materials and 4 man days at most so the place should be bloody spotless. Other quotes round here (north west) were all similar or in fact higher – the salesman was good and brought samples etc. I have no faith that the inspections that were promised (to check for any damage and make good) were carried out – how could they when the guy could barely reach some bits on the end of a ladder!

The job ‘looks’ good enough, although there are some areas that I think need tidying but I feel a little vulnerable here as I really don’t know about these things. Planning on getting a friend out to look it over tomorrow, he’s no expert but does small building projects so should be able to give a view at least.

I assume that he survived but will double check the stain on the drive in the morning in case its blood!

Have you taken pictures of on going work?

Sweet baby jeeebesus and Mary chain, 5k 8O.
Sorry, but regardless of everything else that’s a **** lot of money!
I’ve literally just paid 3800 for 13 Windows and doors fully fitted, including a big bay and a composite door.
Foam products aren’t cheap in the upvc industry but you’re well within your rights at that price holding payment until it’s perfect!

Have you had a full, itemised breakdown of the quote?
That is way too much……seriously! I’d be on to rogue traders or the like…..did they ask if you liked dags?

What is underneath is a bit more difficult to assess now the job is nearly complete, but in terms of the finishing simply don’t accept anything less than a perfect job and that includes any cleaning up.

Too late now but the trick is to ask lots of questions at time of quoting, contractors will usually try to be as vague as possible so you need to drill down into how exactly they will do the work – scaffolding/access, how many people for how many days etc, what materials they are using etc etc. The ones that will answer the questions and provide the details tend to be the ones who do a better job.

Have you had a full, itemised breakdown of the quote?
That is way too much……seriously! I’d be on to rogue traders or the like…..did they ask if you liked dags?

Whether it’s way too much, which it is especially given what the OP has described, they offered a quote and the OP accepted.

I’d be pissed off at whoever recommend them.