The IDF have also used Palestinians as human shields, so they don’t even have the moral high ground on that one that keeps getting trotted out.

I don’t think the words ‘moral high ground’ and IDF belong in the same sentence.

Sad as every death might be, a dispassionate look at the data certainly doesn’t point toward random or untargeted strikes.

Who created that bar chart and based on whose figures?

The final tragedy is that the actions of the IDF only hasten an endgame where the anti-semitic objectives of all their neighbouring Islamists in the region (of “driving Israel into the sea”) triumph, as international support wanes because they are behaving like a bunch of Nazis.

Sad as every death might be, a dispassionate look at the data certainly doesn’t point toward random or untargeted strikes.

If it is targeted then the civilian bit must be targeted

What’s the point of a 57 second warning? Unless you want to terrorize someone and their family just before you execute them.

There are some very sick people in the IDF.

It is a barking situation one country steals the land from another does a complete blockade of them whilst stealing their land and then considers them terrorists for getting upset by this and defending themselves

Imagine if the arabs did this to israel- full blockade and land grab and were slowly driving Israel into the sea – would they defend themselves?

The world community really needs to react to this as it is indefensible

What’s the point of a 57 second warning? Unless you want to terrorize someone and their family just before you execute them.

There are some very sick people in the IDF.

They see the Arabs as subhumans? To be executed?

Ethnically cleanse the area? Of course I’m happy to be proven wrong on this but if the IDF announces in a week that they are going to permanently station troops there …then a settlement and the settlement then needs security to protect them?

They see the Arabs as subhumans? To be executed?

of course…why else would they target civilians?
i dont buy into their justification for attacking hospitals, schools and residential buildings…
that “Hamas fired a rocket form within the ground or from nearby so we levelled the place”..its a load of bollocks
when you have 1.8 million people crammed into a piece of land that measures 25 miles long by 4-8 miles wide…where else are these militants expected to wage their resistance from.
yes just like Israel has a right to defend itself so have the Palestinians…more so considering the disproportionate bombardment they are facing.
also how can the IDF justify levelling a building by using the above excuse? do you really think after firing a rocket Hamas militants are going to hag around for a few hours to see if the Israelis shoot back at them? most of the time with this type of urban warfare you fire a shot then move on…staying as a moving target makes you harder to catch/kill…the IDF know this but it doesnt stop them from levelling nay building they see fit…which takes me back to my belief that the atrocities they are committing are deliberate and that women and mainly children are being systematically targeted and killed.

if the IDF announces in a week that they are going to permanently station troops there …then a settlement and the settlement then needs security to protect them?

that’s always been part of the plan Hora…there is a massive gas reserve off the coast of Gaza…the Israelis have already started to export it out even though it actually belongs to the Palestinians.
they now need the Palestinians out of the way so they can carry on this theft…in doing so they will also gain the Gaza strip so the land gain comes as a bonus.
this is why the assault on Gaza has been a pre-emptive strike that was carefully planned out by the Israeli government and the IDF…to gain more land and secure the gas supply that they have stolen.
they needed a reason to go in so they used the cover of the 3 boys being killed by Hamas.

i dont buy into their justification for attacking hospitals, schools and residential buildings…
that “Hamas fired a rocket form within the ground or from nearby so we levelled the place”..its a load of bollocks

Sorry, are you saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

or are you saying that them doing so does not suspend the protection of the civilian facility? (if so, one has to wonder why the drafters of the Geneva conventions and associated commentary wasted whole chapters explaining the exact circumstances in which protection of civilian buildings and hospitals ceased)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/gaza-conflict-west-bank-impact

I really hope this doesn’t lead to a “formal” 2 pronged operation now, too many people have died, everywhere.

EDIT to correct direct URL link.

Geneva conventions

😆

The Geneva Convention(s) doesn’t apply to Israel though does it? I mean, it never has before. I’ve always assumed Israel had special exemption, on account of them just defending themselves.

gonzy – Member

also how can the IDF justify levelling a building by using the above excuse? do you really think after firing a rocket Hamas militants are going to hag around for a few hours to see if the Israelis shoot back at them?

Ironically the “knock on the roof” proves that point- “Yeah we’re going to blow up this building but we’ll give everyone inside a warning first”. ie, you are targeting the empty building itself, rather than the terrorists supposedly inside it. It’s punitive, not in any way protective.

Sorry, are you saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

I’d suggest that if a load of hardline islamic nut-jobs turned up, tooled up to the teeth, and said they were firing some rockets from there, you’d probably not have an awful lot of choice in the matter. I’d also imagine that as a surgeon, say, in a Palestinian hospital, you might have more significant things to be taking care of, rather than nipping around everywhere to see if anyones letting off any munitions nearby. And just living in Gaza, staying alive in the midst of all the chaos is hard enough, without wondering where Hamas were going to be launching missiles from. So you weren’t in the area. Though Gaza is so small and concentrated, its difficult to imagine this mythical ‘somewhere else’ is for you to go to

But you keep going, ninfan, with your zionist justification for massacring civilians. As you’ve no doubt noted, you’re persuasive reasonings, and logical arguments are winning us all over. Maybe we’re all wrong, and the IDF aren’t just a genocidal bunch of gleefully trigger happy murderers after all…..

🙄

Sorry, the answer to the questions seems to have gotten mixed up with a load of ‘zionist justification’ straw man rubbish.

So, to ask again – is anyone saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

Is anyone claiming that them doing so does not suspend the protection of the civilian facility?

So, to ask again – is anyone saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

They may or may not be, but regardless of that, to bomb a hospital because someone is firing a (pretty ineffective) weapon from the grounds, can simply not be justified. And your attempts to paint it white are a bad reflection on your morality, to be honest.

one has to wonder why the drafters of the Geneva conventions and associated commentary wasted whole chapters explaining the exact circumstances in which protection of civilian buildings and hospitals ceased)

Is it really your argument that the IDF and the Israelis are following the rule book?
Remind us all about collective punishment and what it says
I bet it says something about the spoils of war as well.
Behave will you.

Its only a straw man if not true [ ditto ad hom]and you are either saying shit you dont mean to get a reaction or you are a zionist apologist

neither one is flattering and neither one will affect your moral compass

And just living in Gaza, staying alive in the midst of all the chaos is hard enough

Well, that, and … where are Hamas supposed to go? Out in a field where they can be bombed? Maybe if the US supplies them with tanks and Patriots, Hamas will choose some different tactics?

Maybe if the US supplies them with tanks and Patriots, Hamas will choose some different tactics?

Buk missile launchers?

ninfan – Member

Is anyone claiming that them doing so does not suspend the protection of the civilian facility?

I think that’s exactly what we’re saying, yes. Attacking a hospital because someone fired a rocket from it/near it (*) is completely disproportionate, not to mention ineffectual.

If it was saving lives, perhaps there would be a case to make but realistically it’s not- each rocket has only a small chance of taking a life in the first place, but that doesn’t really matter because attacking the launch sites demonstrably doesn’t stop rocket attacks anyway.

(* I say near it, because the Israeli spy shots they published a couple of days ago showing launches from a hospital showed the launch site as being outside the building, in the grounds, but the building was subsequently attacked)

Re the Geneva Convention, the exemptions of protections for hospitals specifically apply only in a declared state of war (ie, between nations), so don’t apply here. The israelis apparently agree this doesn’t apply, since they didn’t give the warnings and time periods mandated by the convention before the attacks

Buk missile launchers?

For example. While we’re busy criticising Russia’s nutters for killing 300 civilians, the Israeli nutters are killing double that, without a peep from their sponsors.

So, to ask again – is anyone saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

Is anyone claiming that them doing so does not suspend the protection of the civilian facility?

I think most people would agree that if someone is firing from a protected civilian facility and it poses a direct risk to your safety then of course its OK to defend yourself whilst the facility is being used.

However once they have stopped firing (and not in the same way as an Israeli reloading constitutes a 8 second ceasefire) then it is no longer a valid target.

FFS use some common sense.

If this was say Russian defending itself from Ukraine I suspect that the international community might actually stop being so cowardly and actually condemn this slaughter, but for some reason Israel butchering women and children doesn’t count.

Sorry, are you saying that Hamas are not firing rockets from hospitals, schools and residential buildings?

i’m not saying that Hamas arent using these building to fire rockets from…what i am saying is that it is most likely that these rocket units are mobile and therefore once they have fired from one site they move onto another…unless of course the IDF can provide physical proof that there was a permanent rocket launcher/battery mounted to the roof of Al-Wafa and Al-Shifa hospital.
this however does not give the IDF any right whatsoever to go and level a building simply because a rocket may have been fired from its rooftop several hours ago…
thats like saying i’m going blow up your neighbour’s car window because you were stood next to it when you stuck 2 fingers up at me

Re the Geneva Convention, the exemptions of protections for hospitals specifically apply only in a declared state of war (ie, between nations), so don’t apply here.

ICRC and ICJ say otherwise

The israelis apparently agree this doesn’t apply, since they didn’t give the warnings and time periods mandated by the convention before the attacks

Really? The phone calls seem to indicate differently:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O9AHzUKYk8[/video]

i’m not saying that Hamas arent using these building to fire rockets from…what i am saying is that it is most likely that these rocket units are mobile and therefore once they have fired from one site they move onto another…

Here’s a really radical idea – if they’re mobile, then stop firing them from schools and hospitals – because doing so can only be a deliberate attempt to bring about civilian casualties!

Really? The phone calls seem to indicate differently

I was typing a response, but suddenly it feels dirty even to engage with you – a person who seeks to justify bombing a hospital, shelling children on a beach, bombing a disabled home. Revolting.

Buk missile launchers?

so can you tell me how the **** they managed to get on of these onto a building rooftop??
assuming thats why the IDF are targeting buildings…because rockets are being fired from the rooftops…if it was from a location in the vicinity of the building, why target the building?
unless you want to destroy the building as punishment and kill its occupants

either way you’re pi$$ing in the wind

ninfan – Member

Really? The phone calls seem to indicate differently:

Nope- that’s one call, re one hospital. According to reports no warning was given at Al Aqsa, El Wafa “warning” was given after the bombardment had started (which the IDF later claimed was not targeted, despite telling the Red Cross that it was)

The Geneva Convention sections you refer to are specifically “in a time of war”. What do you have to contradict that?

That’s a bit of a side point, of course, since something doesn’t have to be forbidden by the conventions to be wrong. But since you’re using the conventions as a defence, I’d like to see you make it stand.

a person who seeks to justify bombing a hospital

I don’t need to justify it – Article 19 of Geneva IV justifies it in black and white.

No, it really doesn’t, and lawyer-ese doesn’t substitute for simple humanity, of which you plainly have none.

The Geneva Convention sections you refer to are specifically “in a time of war”. What do you have to contradict that?

UN Security Council Resolutions 446 and 607, which states that they do!

lawyer-ese doesn’t substitute for simple humanity, of which you plainly have none.

No, I’m simply seeing it through a dispassionate lens that leads me to the belief that all this could be stopped if Hamas stopped firing rockets at Israeli civilians

And look, I can do that without calling people names

Your absolutely right. Israel has no track record at all of totally disproportionate ‘pre-emptive’ violence towards Palestine, or any of its other neighbours, using the very flimsiest of pretexts.

I’m sure that if only the rockets stopped, Israel would return to its normal benign attitude towards Gaza, and leave everyone in peace to get on with their lives. Returning to being for beacon of peace in the region

Would be worth a try, wouldn’t it?

Would be worth a try, wouldn’t it?

Well, nothing to stop the Israelis giving it a go.

But ( for example ) building endless new settlements on Palestinian land and then crying foul when the Palestinians object is a an extreme example of chutzpah.

Your probably right ninfan stop firing the rockets that are totally ineffective and giving the Israelis excuses. Yes why use a weapon which will provoke a response thousands of times more devastating. But why would you respond in such a devastating form ? Maybe you got some new toys you wanna try out ? Maybe your an entertainer and you need entertain the crowds on the hilltops ? Maybe you just feel like killing , maiming and oppressing cos that’s your thing cos you can’t get your kicks at the checkpoints or with your sniper rifle anymore ? Point is do you honestly believe Israel needs an excuse ?
Israel is above and beyond all laws that apply to the rest of the world . Most sane people in the world can see insanity for what it is sadly some make excuses for it.

From the start oft his terrible episode I have been intrigued by the notion of proportionate responses and what that means. I grew up in the Cold War time when the idea of deterrent meant very different things to either side. Simply put, for one it was based on “equivalence” for the other it was based on “significant superiority”. Not surpisingly the latter was the notion followed by the party that had suffered the most invasions of its sovereign territory over time. So bringing that forward to now, what do we mean by proportiate response? What would we be happy for either side in this conflict to say and do? Other than to stop killing people, obviously.

Coincidently there was apiece in the Torygraph from Dan Hodges (who occasionally makes good points) which was well written today. He concludes

So what is it that we want? Do we want the troops, the bombs, the cruise missiles, the drones, the artillery, the death squads, the blockades or the sanctions? Because if we say Israel has a right to defend itself, and mean it then, then we’re going to have stop handwringing and start choosing. And if we don’t, then we’re going to have to be honest and admit we don’t want Israel to defend itself at all.

The full article

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100281103/israels-critics-dont-want-a-proportionate-response-in-gaza-they-want-no-response-at-all/

Here’s a really radical idea – if they’re mobile, then stop firing them from schools and hospitals – because doing so can only be a deliberate attempt to bring about civilian casualties!

so where would you have them fire from? rooftops of other buildings such as houses, shops etc? they’ve done that and the Israelis have levelled those buildings too…it doesnt matter where they rockets are being fired from…in any type of warfare once artillery has been fried you team will move to another location. whether the building is a shop, hospital, school or house id irrelevant…they rocket launcher will not still be there…the IDF knows this and yet destroys these building…not to stop the rockets from being fired again, but to kill women and children
when you have 1.8 million people penned into such a small space of land they have nowhere else to go…again the IDF is aware of this but continues to target civilians
unless the IDF are going to provide Hamas with some land specifically designated for the sole purpose of firing rickets at Israel…Hamas will continue to fire from within the civilian population…
but of course Israel does not want to fire rockets or stage any kind of resistance for that matter…instead it wants the Palestinians to roll over and accept the brutally oppressive treatment it is suffering at the Israeli’s hands..

so where would you have them fire from?

I’d rather they didn’t at all – that would be the best solution for everyone, wouldn’t it?

Just think what the international reaction to Israels actions would be if they didn’t have that pesky ‘self defence’ excuse to fall back on, caused entirely by Palestinians firing rockets and trying to kidnap and murder people.

of course, its also possible that if Palestinians stopped firing rockets and trying to kidnap and murder people, Israel (and Egypt) wouldn’t feel the need to have a big wall round there, and wouldn’t need to drop bombs on anyone or anything? There could even be that elusive solution to the whole thing?

if we say Israel has a right to defend itself, and mean it then, then we’re going to have stop handwringing and start choosing. And if we don’t, then we’re going to have to be honest and admit we don’t want Israel to defend itself at all.

I dont think it is this binary. Israel can defend itself but it cannot be the aggressor in all of this and claim this is defence.

Can you imagine the UK doing this [ we turn ireland into a ghetto and controled the borders and economic trade leaving everyone there as impoverished refugees in thei own country ] to Ireland because of the IRA or there response to our land grab of NI?
Would it
1. Have been fair and proportionate?
2. Would it have lead to more attacks from ireland including air attacks?
3.would the IRA have go tmore or less votes in this state – would ireland be more or less militant?
4. Could we then have blamed them for responding to us and then bombed their hospitals?

of course they can defend themselves but this is not defence this is creating the arena for war then blaming the victims for all you do

HAMAS wont surrender but they may well negotiate [ just like the IRA did]

deliberate attempt to bring about civilian casualties

so again it is the Palestinian’s fault Israel is killing its women and children!!
because Israel is so remorseful in its actions…it kills these women and children with such a heavy heart and with the utmost reluctance…so much restraint to prevent civilian casualties(!)
Israel’s compassion has no bounds(!)…in fact it is so compassionate and considerate than during Operation Cast Lead, IDF used white phosphorous to carpet bomb most of Gaza.
even now there have been a few reports that white phosphorous may have been used again (although this has yet to be confirmed)
and their use of Flechette shells/rounds demonstrates their need to keep civilian casualties and death to an absolute minimum.