Ernie – I’ve no idea who in labour supports electoral reform (isn’t featured on the website at all as far as I can see) but whoever they are, they’ve prevaricated too long and I can’t see how the Libs could’ve expected them to go for it any time soon

I reckon if labour had said to Clegg, go with us and we’ll give you PR without a referendum (even AV), he’d have been on ’em like a randy dog

The collapse of large parts of the world’s banking system caused by mismanagement of a small offshore European island’s economy?,if only.

Sarcasm doesn’t really come over too well on forums 😀

Maybe I should have added a 😉 to my post above

Uplink,that’s total tripe.

To be fair I don’t think it was Uplink who started talking tripe. I think he was just joining in the fun and adding more nonsense to other people’s tripe………..sometimes that’s all that it’s worth doing.

Do you think when the Lib Dems get obliterated at the next election Nick Clegg might try standing as a Tory instead?

Sorry,missed it,apologies all round.

Ernie – I’ve no idea who in labour supports electoral reform

How about Alan Johnson for starters ? ……..a Labour leadership contender so presumably a fairly senior Labour politician.

Johnson urging electoral reform

OK – so you’re now saying they did indeed talk to them?

I didn’t say that they didn’t speak to them. What I was taking issue with was the idea that they spoke to both sides at some length

I don’t think they did.

I think they spoke to the Tories at some length

Then as a negotiating tactic quite late on went and spoke briefly to Labour, before coming back to the Tories.

I don’t think there was ever any serious negotiation with Labour.

“Gordon Brown should hold a national referendum on electoral reform”

Same referenum offer, then, from one senior – and seems he got in a bit of trouble for it, from that BBC piece

started meeting in the morning, shifted position late that evening – that’s some length, surely ?

It’s all relative.

What did they say?

I expect they spent most of the time deciding whether to order in Bourbons or Jammy Dodgers.

It’s all relative.
What did they say?

You should go into politics matey !

grum – Member
Do you think when the Lib Dems get obliterated at the next election Nick Clegg might try standing as a Tory instead?

If he did that he’d either have to move constituency or the Tories would have to do some amazing stuff.

Yeah maybe they’ll give him a safe Tory seat somewhere.

Yeah maybe they’ll give him a safe Tory seat somewhere.

The House of Lords?

Here you go. Nice unbiased reporting form the FT.

click

unbiased but basically just recanting other peoples’ versions given 5 months later, bathed in the glow of hindsight and the need to protect theor own posisitions and actions. Bit like calling the radio coverage of Prime Minister’s QUestions unbiased; clearly true, but still no clarity:

It does state that they had about 3.5 hrs of talks though – and that these were then used to improve the deal they got from Dave on AV (possibly incorporating giving a false impression of what Labour offered regarding voting) rather than CLegg taking a principled stance

I’ll stick by my original suggestion that you questioned

the way I see it is that they prob did a deal with whoever offered the best chance of a change in the voting system

I’ll stick by my original suggestion that you questioned

But the quote from Andrew Adonis says “we had about three and a half hours (of talks)….we didn’t reach an advanced stage of negotiations.”

This was 4 days after the election.

You are being obdurate.

So they began their principled approach, didn’t like what they saw on offer and went off to the alternative. 3.5 hrs of formal disussion (plus who knows what else informally) and maybe some disinformation later they are offered a deal that likely could never be bettered by labour with such a fragile number of seats when aggregated. Unless Labour said they could have AV on a plate, it was never going to get serious.

I’d ask in what way would it be in the interests of either of those individuals to say (5 months later) anything other than “nah, we were just going through the motions” – the parliamentary equivalent of “I never fancied her anyway” ?

3.5 hrs of talks regarding possible coalition is, in my view, talking at some length. Clearly we differ on that. Regardless, I suspect the outcome was “the best chance of a change in the voting system” – improved by virtue of their talking to labour.

(“I did not have sexual relations with that Labour”) 😉

Here’s what the New Statesman said about it.

let Cameron run a minority government.

Would have been irresponsible given the financial/economic crisis – it would not have lasted more than a few months. The arithmetic for a LibLab govt was bad, and forming a govt with the party that just lost the election would be weak too. Nick’s a bright bloke and I’m sure he knew he risked his political cache. He was being principled, not a sell out for deputy leader. As party leader, what position do you think he should have taken? PM’s boot cleaner?

ConDem was the only combo that arithmetically worked. Don’t blame the politicians: it was our votes, using a crappy two-party voting system that produced the bad arithmetic!

scaredypants – Member

“Gordon Brown should hold a national referendum on electoral reform”

Same referenum offer, then, from one senior

Why highlight “a national referendum” scaredypants, have you got a problem with that ? If it had been tied to the general election as Johnson had suggested, then it would have put enormous pressure on any incoming Tory government to honour it, so not a bad move by Johnson, even though I’m no great fan of his. If you want more senior Labour politicians who support PR then google it yourself, I can’t be bothered – you could start with Peter Hain.

EDIT : Not the “same referendum offer” at all, Johnson was suggesting a referendum on PR, something which most of the electorate would probably have supported.

Would have been irresponsible given the financial/economic crisis

Putting his weight behind Osbourne’s policies is responsible ?

He was being principled, not a sell out for deputy leader.

Are you on the same planet as the rest of us ? Tuition fees ?

what position do you think he should have taken? PM’s boot cleaner?

Well for all the influence he’s ended up exerting, boot cleaner would seem like a step up.

There is only one reason for Clegg’s actions and it has already been stated on this thread :-

I think the fact that he is a right-wing free-market neo-liberal probably came into it too.

Of course that profile would have enabled him to climb in to bed with NuLab too which I’m sure he’d have happliy done had the numbers been favourable.

No seriously I disagree with the idea that Nick, Vince etc have been seduced by [silly voice] lust-for-power. But I do think Cameron has smoked them like kippers. 😀

Let’s see what happens when AV is rejected. Nick and Vince will have a powerful excuse to break off the coalition. If they do, it will be to save their careers from political oblivion, and I’ll change my mind and agree with you. If the coalition remains, you’re wrong, IMHO.

Why highlight “a national referendum” scaredypants, have you got a problem with that ?

No problem with it Ernie. Highlighting it because you were implying in yr earlier post that labour might have introduced electoral reform without one but AJ (whom you cited as the senior labour figure in favour of reform) clearly was calling for a referendum

The vote on AV was no concession. The introduction of AV would have been. Referendums are extraordinary rare in the Britain compared to other comparable countries, the Tories didn’t even bother with a referendum when Britain joined the EEC. And the last Labour government didn’t bother with referendums on issues such as whether there should be direct mayoral elections in London, or the GLA. No one was asked if they wanted the first past the post system, there was no need for a referendum to change it. The Tories gave the LibDems nothing, and the AV referendum was designed simply so that the question of electoral reform would not be raised again for a very long time. Any future Labour government will now struggle to introduce electoral reform without a referendum as a result of the precedence established by the Tories. Smart move by the Tories, stupid move by the LibDems.

it would have put enormous pressure on any incoming Tory government to honour it

SO what?, we’ve just had one* and I’m very concerned that any chance of reform’s been flushed
(*the BBC link you put up suggested that Johnson was promoting AV+, not PR, although he seemed to have hedged a bit & just said “reform” from time to time)

Lib Dem voters make me laugh,
”I voted LibDem but I never thought they would actually have the audacity to get any power”
HA!

Clegg’s got his oar in, I would be happy with that.

ooohh its got onto AV on question time

watch paddy explode!

I so enjoyed watching Paddy pwn that smug twit Murray.

No problem with it Ernie. Highlighting it because you were implying in yr earlier post that labour might have introduced electoral reform without one

No I didn’t. I said that a referendum wasn’t necessary. Why can’t you read what I’m saying – is my English that bad ?

No wait, it’s that you just miss out the bits you don’t want to read, RE : “the BBC link you put up suggested that Johnson was promoting AV+, not PR”

And yet the link clearly says in black and white :

“Most seats in the Commons would be filled with locally elected MPs, but the remainder would be allocated by proportional representation according to the number of votes cast for each party. “

So Johnson’s proposals were to introduce an element of PR. I don’t necessarily support Johnson’s idea, but it a very obvious example of senior Labour politicians being committed to electoral reform, something which appeared to doubt was the case.

BTW, you can respond to this post if you like scaredypants, but I doubt whether I’ll bother much more – you appear to be more interested in nitpicking and “scoring points”, which frankly I can’t see much point in.

Oxboy – Member

Lib Dem voters make me laugh

And BNP voters make me laugh. BNP voters like you Oxboy.

Oxboy – Member

The BNP got a councillor in about 5 miles away too.
Not protest voting either, people are beginning to open their eyes, lets hope you lot wake up soon eh?!!! Before I have to say I told you so . . .

Oxboy – Member

The BNP and UKIP are the ONLY parties who actually, genuinely give a sh*t about the country.

Oxboy – Member

You lot go on about being disgusted at the BNP being Racists etc, I’m disgusted at the state of our Country our MP’s and the massive influx of immigrants and the drain on our taxes.

No I didn’t. I said that a referendum wasn’t necessary. Why can’t you read what I’m saying – is my English that bad ?

Yeah, you said a referendum isn’t necessary and then you said:
“Any future Labour government will now struggle to introduce electoral reform without a referendum as a result of the precedence established by the Tories. Smart move by the Tories, stupid move by the LibDems”
WHy would you say that unless you thought they might actually do so ?
All I did was express some surprise at your statement and ask if there was a likelihood of them doing so

No wait, it’s that you just miss out the bits you don’t want to read, RE : “the BBC link you put up suggested that Johnson was promoting AV+, not PR”
And yet the link clearly says in black and white :
“Most seats in the Commons would be filled with locally elected MPs, but the remainder would be allocated by proportional representation according to the number of votes cast for each party. “

Well, yeah – that is what AV+ means Ernie 🙄
see, you missed out the bit you didn’t want to read:

The new system Mr Johnson favours is known as Alternative Vote Plus and was …

Anyway, g’night

Thanks for confirming that you are more interested in nitpicking and scoring points scaredypants. I appreciate it. And I will now take that into consideration in the future, before I naively enter into any discussions with you.

well if the scottisw exit polls are right lib dems will have no seats in scotland 3% forecast down to 3 % thus no seats at all

~~Buzz imb no buying it. Clegg made a huge blunder and he will(hopefully) pay the price. He misjudged the electorate, his own party and the tories

seriously he looksso lightweight amongst lightweights

I’m not familiar with MSP election numbers from the past but Jeebus, the LDs polling figures are woeful. They’re down in the hundreds 😯 Looking like the swing is towards the SNP so far. TeeJ, you must be nursing an enormous erection this evening 😉

Clegg was damned if he did, damned if he didn’t. Look at the alternative scenarios:
Attempted coalition with Labour – already broken his promise to deal with the party with highest support, looks like he’s supporting the party which “lost” the election, part of a “government” which would struggle to get anything through parliament given they were still a minority government – I can’t see them coming out of it looking good.
Supporting Conservative minority government – they’d have had no real power, the government would have struggled to get business done and they’d have been blamed for not doing the right thing for the country at a time of need – I can’t see them coming out of it looking good.

ISTM the problem wasn’t what they decided to do, but the election result which forced them into taking such decisions – such irony that a hung parliament results in long term damage for the LDs.

I agree with paddys comments on newsnight ; that labour being split on av meant it was doomed, milliband looks weak for it, unable to unite his party – dinosaurs like Prescott still carry some weight with voters.
which brings us nicely onto the next sham reform of camerons ‘new politics’ the house of lords…….

Clegg was damned if he did, damned if he didn’t. Look at the alternative scenarios:

You missed off: Don’t go into a coalition with either of them, forcing a fresh election one way or another
The electorate were clearly underwhelmed by the lot of them, they could have gone away and re-thought their plans
Brown would probably have gone and possibly Gideon too and maybe they would have come back with policies that suited people better

or maybe not 🙂

In what way do you imagine a fresh election would have helped the UK out of crisis, or even yielded a significantly different result? It’s like saying “Sorry electorate, you gave the wrong answer; try again”. LibDems would have been blamed for not grasping the nettle after the first result. Damned every way.

Somebody pointed up that Nick has appeared too chummy with Cameron, esp. the interview on the lawn. I agree and think that was his error, what has turned off his support.

AV+ is a proportional representation system, proposed by Lord Jenkins.

I agree with paddys comments on newsnight ; that labour being split on av meant it was doomed,

Yes I heard Ashdown claim that it’s the Labour Party’s fault. It must come as a huge relief to him to know that it wasn’t the LibDems fault.

I don’t know why folk are saying a minority conservative government would not have worked – the SNP minority government has in Holyrood.

It would have meant that they Tories would have needed to persuaded other parties to vote for them – a great moderating influence and would have meant no stupidity like the NHS reforms.

Its clear to me that that is what clegg should have done had he not been seduced by the prospect of ministerial titles.

He has finished the lib dems as apolitical force by supporting this tory government