Was in town and the train got cancelled. Turns out they’ll let me claim my taxi fare into town back! In the UK I’d get my fare back, and that would be it.

Caught it on the way back to the airport. Spotless trains and stations, bang on time and a smooth experience throughout. How do they do it?

Bought food and drink and did some general shopping while I was there. The quality seemed much better than what we get here. Also, even smaller supermarkets seemed to have tons of variety instead of the pile ’em high and sell it cheap approach favoured here. The bakeries and the coffee were also pretty good (not Australia good mind). Also, shops. For someone used to just seeing multiple branches of Topshop and H&M on the same street, it seemed incredible how several brands can co-exist and pump out nice looking clothes so you’re not all stuck looking like you stepped out of Logan’s Run.

I did a bit of digging and salaries are lower than here (for my profession anyway), and taxes seem higher. How can people afford to live in cities like Stockholm? I’d say on average, a grocery shop was 20% more expensive for comparable stuff. Is there a ton of government subsidy for everyone?

Different cultural imperatives on consumption.

just try finding a bar/pub out in the sticks 😉

Different cultural imperatives

This by the bucket load.

People there seem to accept that if you want nice things you have to pay for them as a result they’re a bit more realistic about taxation.

But how can they afford the nice things? I don’t hear tons of stories about Sweden’s crippling debt problem.

But how can they afford the nice things?

Save a load of money on suncream and flip flops don’t they?

I think we have different approaches to alcoholism, which has a large influence on public order [eg the spotless trains and stations you saw]. Now the Swedes and Finns get fired into the ale as we all know, but in a more introspective way ISTM. We’re more exuberant with it, which has consequences.

Salaries are slightly lower across the board. I’d earn 10 grand more doing the same job as i do now in the UK.

Taxation is very very similar (at a percentage of salary level) as we don’t have NI here. It’s all lumped together. So my total deductions are about the same. The employers contribution is significantly larger though. So total cost of employment is higher.

Tax on goods is fairly similar, but you’ll struggle to find the sort of sub “tesco value” brand goods you can get everywhere in the UK. You know, like the 3p tins of beans they had during the baked bean wars. Even the stores own brand stuff isn’t bad. Weekly shop is (as you found) 10-15% more, but you can happily grab the cheapest on the shelf and knwo it won’t be crap.

The extra taxes subsidise the nice services we have. That no one complains about paying for, because everyone looks after them and gets use out of them.

The big plus is that housing costs are **** all compared to the UK. And the quality of the houses is far far better. I couldn’t get what i’m in now, where it is, for less than half-to-three-quarters of a million quid in the UK. Currently worth about 180 grand.

the refund + taxi ride applies in Germany too. there’s a lot of reasons why UK trains will never be that good eg we can’t have double-deckers because of the low bridges. Also, European urban areas tend to be much denser and the countryside much wider as a result. more commutes are by foot/bike than in the UK or USA as when you arrive in the city, its not too far to get around.

regarding clothes, I know in France people tend to have less items but they are better quality.

I don’t hear tons of stories about Sweden’s crippling debt problem.

Most banks follow the rules about lending money and credit very strictly. You won’t get a mortgage without your full 20% deposit. And your maximum monthly payment *must* leave you enough money to eat, pay bills, transport, feed kids etc AND have money left over. Same with loans and credit.

You have to be *really* stupid and try *really* hard to get into significant debt that you really can’t service.

Save a load of money on suncream and flip flops don’t they?

Nope. Suncream is bought by the gallon. 9 months of near total darkness means the semi transparent stuff we call “skin” burns even under a full moon.

Different cultural imperatives on consumption.

Also investment in infrastructure.

Can you really compare the two easily, as the UK is a much bigger country population wise, London alone is not far off the whole of Sweden (8.63 million vs 9.98 million) and the total population of the UK is 66.6 million.

Also looking at Passenger-kilometres of rail transport per year, then the UK is 7th and Sweden down in 27th, so the UK rail network sees significant higher usage.

I’ve lived here 5 years now and I actually pay very little attention to prices and stuff.

I would however sum it up that the essentials are relatively cheap. Food , housing, travel, heating , water is often free . Sure you might earn less but we pay 110 quid a month for 2 children to be in childcare. Except housing in stockholm. It’s so expensive.

Luxuries you pay for. Booze, eating out etc.

Taxes are higher here but Swedes seem to trust in each other and particularly the government that the money is being spent were it is needed.

The trains are however known for being not good…!

Edit, genuine question that I’ve never seen answered. Why does population matter? I’m asking to be educated as I don’t know and is something that always comes up

Don’t underestimate the impact of free or cheap childcare. I think it drives workplace equality, which means it’s much more likely to see women in highly paid professional jobs. If well paid professional jobs tend to 50/50 then there is more chance that households have two well paid adults. I would expect to find that under-employment is less of a problem if I could be bothered to google for it. Getting more value out of the population then grows the economy, which means it can sustain more taxation. Which the people agree to because they understand what it means.

I also think that in Scandinava there has historically been far less income equality, which means that most people feel closer to society, so there’s no rarified stratum of rich/elites who go around with right wing blinkers on all the time.

Why does population matter?

Smaller groups of people are more likely to feel close to each other. And I think that the rich were always less rich, because they had fewer people from whom to make money and there was less business going on because these are smaller countries. Hence greater equality.

I once visited a country stately home in Finland – you know, like a National Trust type place. Not only were there very very few compared to the stately homes strewn all over England, but it was really surprisingly small and cheaply done out. Looked like a cheap hotel, but old. But the owners were some of the richest people in Finland at the time. Whereas in England the elites have been making so much cash for so long that it’s created a huge difference in class between the top and the bottom, which is why our stately homes are so opulent.

I blame William the Conqueror this time.

Oh and re trains – yes, the UK network struggles with quality, but that’s because it does far more than most countries do – more passengers and higher density of trains.

Sweden’s just nicer. People are nicer, the place is better, everything works. I’m biased (I’m intending to move there next year), but compared to the UK, it’s a breath of fresh air.

Yes, food is more expensive, but people get round this by thinking more about how they eat and using more staples and cooking/eating in more. Going out is a treat rather than a regular alternative and, personally, I see nothing wrong with booze being an expensive luxury.

Ok, apartments are ridiculously expensive in Stockholm, but renting is not ruinous and people seem to cope. You also don’t _have_ to live in Stockholm either. Other cities do exist and have jobs too.

Save a load of money on suncream and flip flops don’t they?

Not really given their very long summer days and attitude to nakedness

The big plus is that housing costs are **** all compared to the UK. And the quality of the houses is far far better. I couldn’t get what i’m in now, where it is, for less than half-to-three-quarters of a million quid in the UK. Currently worth about 180 grand.

It so happens I recently shared a table on a journey on a delightful Scotrail train with a group of Swedish house builders on a whisky tour (until we had to get off because of a points problem and get four carriages of people onto an already full two carriage train) . I think they just couldn’t believe the tiny poorly built houses we buy and what we pay for them. I think they were generally amused/amazed at the cost of life in the UK for what you get and the brexit self destruction of the country. In relation to the drinking point above they were also drinking like fish but incredibly politely and quietly (never try and outdrink a swede unless you are a finn or russian apparently!), very unlike british train drinking behaviour. One of them even gave me the rest of his snus to take home!

Sweden has lower income inequality but higher wealth inequality that the UK.

I want to move to Sweden.

Whereabouts willard?

I think they just couldn’t believe the tiny poorly built houses we buy and what we pay for them

I think that is a big thing here. I’ve mentioned this on other posts , especially about food actually, but when I go back to the UK I am struck by the obsession with cheapness. Food has to be cheap,booze, clothes etc etc. The quality of an item is almost irrelevant. I think there is a better sense of what something is ‘worth’ here .

I’m biased (I’m intending to move there next year)

At risk of moving this post too far off topic, I’d be really interested in some of the respondent’s experiences of moving to and living in Scandinavia. I was born in Sweden but left when I was a toddler – I’d love to move back so that my children can grow up in a nicer society than the UK seems to be developing into, and that we can enjoy the sort of clean, outdoor living which is harder to access in this country – having a cabin by a lake would make me eternally happy! Our extended families would remain in the UK so we’d be keen to be within reasonable distance for regular visits both ways.

We have a good chunk of equity in our house and savings (could walk away with £500k fairly easily) – we are in our late 30s with a little person and another on the way. Both Coppers so perhaps not the most transferrable skill, but I am a fairly skilled (but not qualified) carpenter so perhaps I could pursue a change of course.

How did those who have moved overseas make the break? Finding a job would seem fairly crucial – any tips? Did you learn Swedish / Norwegian before you left the UK? Any other hot advice anyone can supply would be most welcome…

Japan seems to do ok.

Another thing to bear in mind is that some smart cookie in government/civil service decided long ago that infrastructure was something to support making wealth in a country. So lots of them are completely not-for-profit.

And those that have been privatised have contracts and licensing deals which allow them to make reasonable profits whilst also having to achieve a quite reasonable minimum level of service (Mobile phone/telecomms, power generation, rail links, bus services etc).

Rather than simply maximising profit and ending up with a service that barely functions.

So people complaining that the trains are bad in Sweden, quite frankly have almost no idea what they are talking about.

And housing in Stockholm isn’t that bad. Especially as long term rental is far more common than it is in the UK.

My understanding was that the waiting list for long term rental in Stockholm is extremely long. The average waiting time is 9 years now i believe.14 years for the Inter city and up to 20 years for the cool areas. New build waiting time further out is significantly less but they have struggled for years to build more homes. I may be completely wrong though as i live 7 hours away from the big city.

@siwhite it’s a long story but I’m happy to have a chat whenever you want. I had no Swedish when I moved here . I got a job as a civil engineer/ transport planner nerd straight away. Many companies now have an informal system of just speaking English to you for a while and introducing more and more Swedish. I now work totally in Swedish .

I now have moved further north and work 4 days a week. There are Fördelar och nackdelar with Sweden just like any other country but overall I much prefer it here. I guess you have a passport so you are legal, so to speak.

I meant cost, not availability, thats shit in any of the citys.

And if you live 30 minutes outside the city, availability is good, costs are lower and public transport is good……. so not that big an issue.

Japan seems to do ok.

I’m not saying every country with high traffic density will have shite trains. I’m saying that the UK is a difficult case. I’ve been saying the same as you for many years GM.

Especially as long term rental is far more common than it is in the UK.

I actually support home ownership as a concept – what I don’t like is rampant house price inflation. Long term renting sucks because you are investing in someone else’s wealth not your own.

Except if you want long term rental or to live in the city 😀

What’s the riding like then?

It was pretty nuts seeing £2k plus road bikes being chained up with a lock I could break without breaking too much of a sweat in a busy city centre!

I work remote, so maybe moving there is an option!

At risk of moving this post too far off topic, I’d be really interested in some of the respondent’s experiences of moving to and living in Scandinavia.

I moved to Trondheim nine years ago. I work in oil and gas and they started sending me to Stavanger for work. I couldn’t help but notice that people on Norwegian contracts were getting paid three times as much as I was for the same job. Overtime was non-existent for UK contract workers while Norwegian contract workers got paid roughly £600 per day on top of their normal salary for working in their off period.

It was at that point I realised that the general tolerance in the UK for shitty working conditions was far higher than I was comfortable with.

I was laid-off in 2015 and spent two years on unemployment benefit. Unemployment benefit is paid at roughly 66% of your average salary over the previous three years so this wasn’t a major hardship. I looked for work but I didn’t feel hounded into taking a job stocking shelves in the supermarket in order to keep my benefits. Even after the two years is up you still get £30 per day benefits.

I spent the last two years teaching myself coding and machine learning so I am now looking to start my own company doing data analysis for oil companies. There is plenty of government support for establishing businesses as well as plenty of venture capital firms looking to invest in start-ups so I’m hopeful of getting funding going into next year.

I can’t see any of this being possible if I had stayed in the UK. If I had I suspect I’d currently be enjoying a career in Tesco’s.

It’s a bit different if you don’t have qualifications. However, if you can get qualified as a carpenter you’ll never be out of work. All the houses are built out of wood, after all.

After nine years my Norwegian is embarrassingly poor. I big reason for this is because you simply don’t need it. When I lived in Spain I was able to communicate effectively in Spanish after 6 months. Getting to the same level in Norway took about 6 years.

I have two kids and I don’t know how I would cope in the UK. Both of them are in a nursery 2 minutes from the house and it costs us a total of £600 per month. Once the oldest starts at school (when he’s 7) he’ll probably just walk there with his friends.

I live about five minutes ride from decent trails so I can nip out for an hour and get some decent riding in.

On the other hand I think it’s easy to find yourself isolated. Norwegians aren’t always the most social creatures and it can be difficult to make friends. Many of my friends here are actually Scottish and Irish but I think that’s normal in any country you move to. You tend to gravitate to people with a common cultural background. It’s just the path of least resistance.

Also, don’t underestimate the effect that not having family around will have. Not having grandparents to give us a night off every so often can be trying at times.

Edit: Forgot to mention, if you have mental health issues then I would try to get yourself here as quick as you can. I visited the doctor once in the UK and vowed never again. It’s probably not the same with all doctors but my experience certainly sounds similar to many other people’s.

After a year and a half here I found myself getting very depressed. In the past I had always assumed I was depressed because of my situation and either changed job or changed address every six months trying to find the right set of circumstances to make me happy. After moving to Norway I couldn’t think of anything else to try since I had everything I wanted.

The doctor was brilliant. I was diagnosed with bipolar and he gave me six weeks off no questions asked and more if I wanted it. I then returned to work gradually over the next few months while finding ways to cope with my condition. After about three months I was at the stage where I was back at work full time and more or less coping. My employer was great throughout the whole period

Who would have thought, if you give people time off and most importantly no pressure to rush back in they can make a recovery and get back to work in reasonable shape?

What’s the riding like then?

pretty good up my way. Snowboarding has taken over now though, lifts open this weekend.

[video]http://vimeo.com/224935027[/video]

I am curious about your user name, curiousyellow, living in Sweden and all. 🙂

Say you were someone who worked remotely.

Say you even had a good amount of family in Norway.

Say you also had a partner who was a qualified, experienced medical professional.

What’s there to stop you from moving to Norway and enjoying a much better quality of life? Your partner could work. Enjoy career progression and life in general would be better apart from the winters I guess. But there’s always the option to move back!

Two hours to get to Åre from where I live 🙂

Part of the reason for increased rail journey costs in the UK is demand management.

What’s there to stop you from moving to Norway

After March 2019 a British passport might. If I were you I’d hurry up 🙂

BruceWee are you in Trondheim then? Bymarka is on the list for a visit do you know it well?

Re the winters. I prefer cold and snow to wet and (relatively) mild. I look forward to the winter for skiing and snowboarding, fires, ice fishing, skating etc and general taking it easier, then when summer comes you can go biking until midnight. it’s brilliant.

Bymarka is good but busy and I live on the other side of town. Geitfjellet is a great trail but avoid peak periods.

http://mtbmap.no/#15/63.4345/10.3266

I tend to do all my riding in Estenstadmarka and Vikåsen. Vikåsen has the advantage of being the last to get snow and the first to thaw.

http://mtbmap.no/#14/63.4104/10.5247

howsyourdad1, it’s going to be Stockholm, likely östermalm initially, then we will see. Being in the city makes a lot of sense for both my job ad the GF’s, but we did go looking at places in Lindingö the other week; the less dense housing offsets the longer commute well.

Language-wise, I am hitting Duolingo heavily and practicing as much as I can, although I am frequently beaten by the locals’ generally superb English. Even the people that apologise for their poor English speak it well. Most of the jobs I am looking at (IT Security) have international teams, so English is the defacto standard. It does not stop me wanting to learn.

I’m also looking to get a working visa too, just as insurance for 2019.

Going back a bit the other thing that rarely gets mentioned is that the UK rail network was one of the first built and that comes with it’s problems of supporting legacy issues. Germany and Japan got to rebuild post WW2, so had a slight advantage there. However, considering all the supposed UK train problems it’s the 4th busiest train system by passengers carried in the world and 3rd if you include the London Underground.

Some of the UK numbers are huge, for instance:

In 2016, there were 1.718 billion journeys on the National Rail network