Glad to hear you were all OK scott.

It always goes a long way if you show concern for others, and if we are seen as being proactive in minimising risk to other bridleway users in general, it will only improve the general publics perception of MTBers.

Not like those feking snowboarders!!!

As a lot of road planners have found, removing all “danger” spots from a road doesn’t actually help prevent accidents! (people just drive faster)

By sanitising trails, it give out the message that someone else is responsible for controlling how YOU ride! If “potentially dangerous” locations are all sanitised with styles,gates or whatever, the users no longer need to pay attention. And we know where that ends up. It also leads to another reduction in personal responsibility, because it could now be “someone elses fault” that there was no sign, or style, or gate, or decent surface, or sightline or whatever!

Have to say, this is a problem we have less of because our land access laws aren’t designed to funnel all the traffic into a too-small network of trails.

A direct consequence of user interest groups devoting themselves to campaigning against the rights of others when they’re supposed to fight for rights for themselves.

And the right to “not be around people who enjoy the countryside differently” is not a right, it’s just a flimsy semantic trick.

(Down with ramblers!)

I also have the same problem with bike bells as i do with car horns!

The purpose of a bell/horn is simple to say “I am here”. But these days, people all too easily assume a ring or a honk is either “Get out of my way” or “you’re a t**t!!”. It is just about impossible to tell from the actual noise what is mean’t.

Because of that, i always favour calling a cheery “hello” or “morning” above the ring of a bell. That way, you set the stage before you get their and it is much harder to other users to misconstrue your intent……

As a lot of road planners have found, removing all “danger” spots from a road doesn’t actually help prevent accidents! (people just drive faster)

By sanitising trails, it give out the message that someone else is responsible for controlling how YOU ride! If “potentially dangerous” locations are all sanitised with styles,gates or whatever, the users no longer need to pay attention. And we know where that ends up. It also leads to another reduction in personal responsibility, because it could now be “someone elses fault” that there was no sign, or style, or gate, or decent surface, or sightline or whatever!

Good point well made.

I was riding on Pitch Hill a couple of years ago. There’s a steep, rooty trail over there that leads down onto a bridleway (I think its called Root Of All Evil on strava). It’s divided into two sections – one short, sharp descent, which then levels off, then there’s a drop off in to the second section, which is full of roots and loose rocks down to the fireroad junction below.

When I read the article it sounded like Wolverns Lane and if so the ‘route’ on the west-side of the sunkern lane has been there for years. Good to climb as it keeps you off the (very) muddy lane and a laugh as a descent with only one blind-ish jump, which is off the BW.

I could be wrong.

WAR!!!!

WAR!!!!

A productive use of my Lunchtime I think…

I did have to point out the southern section of the Towneley possibly wasn’t a great choice of place to be riding it, then.

horse track made by horse riders for horse riders, adopted by mtbers as a long and gruelling but ultimately not much fun* bike route. You’re on dodgy ground there** 🙂

*opinions differ YMMV
**BW so everyone should have equal rights according to my earlier post, but you seemed to be implying some MTB proprietary

I don’t understand horses and am wary of them. I always slow down and make a point of making sure the horse and rider know I’m there with a friendly greeting.

My missus used to ride horses and her incite into just how easily spooked they are is fascinating e.g. a crisp packet on the ground that the horse had ridden round many times then suddenly took offence at causing it to bolt.

IMHO, they are big, dumb and undpredictable and it is the latter that makes me particularly wary. A kick from a horse REALLY hurts! 😯 I just assume that they are going to do the unexpected and give them a wide berth.

I don’t think he was at all – simply pointing out that it is well used by bikes (who have a right to be there), and presumably that there are other places you can ride your horse where you’re not so likely to encounter them if they’re a problem. I suppose at a stretch you could call it victim blaming, but it’s not as if the bike riders are doing anything wrong.

Perhaps the ultimate answer to the minority naysayers of the horse world would be

“Which would you prefer, you can have the bikes ride down this specially designed path, where we’ve controlled their speed and made them slow down before crossing the bridleway… or they can ride down the bridleway and straight past you… your call!”

So this horseist vs biker war – am I supposed to punch myself in the face? I have car too and a 50cc scooter and they’re at war too (and with the previous two too) aren’t they? And my four bikes all have different size wheels so I have to be a dick about the minimum of three I’m not riding at any given moment. And I like rambling through the hills on foot. I have so many identities to hate!

Hora hit the nail on the head with this….there is no other POV unless you’re a Dick!

Flame me but I can see a horse riders point of view.

More and more cyclists, ride quick and round bends etc- you can startle a horse.

You literally have to stop on a bike and wait for a horse to slowly ride past. Crazy but we are dealing with an animal here. If a horse is startled guess what? The human being ontop could have life changing injuries.

It only takes a few berks to dis-proportionally cause a bigger problem.

Surrey Hills does have its element of go-get em/cut throat Londoners on expensive bikes maybe…..

We aren’t 1 ton of metal but the effect is the same – a horse is startled/spooked by a sudden noise, close or riding past quickly.

If I’m approaching one on my bike I’ll pull to the side and WAIT. If I’m approaching from the rear (far worse) I’ll start talking, let the horse actually turn abit to clock/see me before I reach them).

Like a impatient driver on the road we can have the exact affect (difference in size means **** all to a horse unlike us humans).

So this horseist vs biker war – am I supposed to punch myself in the face? I have car too and a 50cc scooter and they’re at war too (and with the previous two too) aren’t they? And my four bikes all have different size wheels so I have to be a dick about the minimum of three I’m not riding at any given moment. And I like rambling through the hills on foot. I have so many identities to hate!

I’d Take up Bowls, Golf, Badger baiting and maybe Naturism, oh and move to the New Forest if you really want to become a one man collection of societal paradox…

I am always careful and courteous around horses and all other trail users.

My cousin was/is a very good show jump horse rider and even she admits that you are never 100% sure about how a horse will react to certain situations – even if you have been riding that particular horse for a long time and think you ‘know’ them.

Quite why people will actively take these animals and ride them on roads or tracks where there is a chance they will get spooked is beyond me.

Surely as a horse rider you have to accept that to a large extent you are placing your safety in the hand(hoofs?) of an animal that you cannot 100% trust?

Granted they should be able to expect courteous behaviour from others (of course), but there comes a point where they have to acknowledge they are taking part in a potentially dangerous activity.

Again the difference between perceived risk and actual risk is massive.

And the more we all take our personal responsibility seriously, rather than moaning and pointing the figure at anyone but ourselves, the better off we will all be 😉

And the more we all take our personal responsibility seriously, rather than moaning and pointing the figure at anyone but ourselves, the better off we will all be

This sums it up for me.

Quite why people will actively take these animals and ride them on roads or tracks where there is a chance they will get spooked is beyond me.

Usually because those roads or tracks are the only way of getting to the good riding! You can’t just stick a horse in the back of your car and drive to the hills…

You can’t just stick a horse in the back of your car and drive to the hills…

Sounds like a Bet to me!

Usually because those roads or tracks are the only way of getting to the good riding! You can’t just stick a horse in the back of your car and drive to the hills…

No, you get a (and here’s the non-cryptic clue) horse box and tow it behind your car to the hills.

Anyway I think you were actually trying to make that point yourself(?)

No, you get a (and here’s the non-cryptic clue) horse box and tow it behind your car to the hills.

Anyway I think you were actually trying to make that point yourself(?)

Many horse riders don’t own their own horse box! Also, try doing a ride on a bike without going on any roads or footpaths – horses can’t go over stiles – so roads are inevitable parts of many rides…

I’ve done most of my horse riding in mid-Wales which has the most incredible network of bridleways, green lanes and byways open to all traffic – you occasionally have to venture onto the odd road but sadly most of the country is nowhere near that nice for horse riding, as many of the ancient bridleways, green lanes and byways are now tarmac roads!

Not as a dig against your post but simply to encourage some empathy,

Quite why people will actively take these animals and ride them on roads or tracks where there is a chance they will get spooked is beyond me.

Surely as a horse rider you have to accept that to a large extent you are placing your safety in the hand(hoofs?) of an animal that you cannot 100% trust?

Granted they should be able to expect courteous behaviour from others (of course), but there comes a point where they have to acknowledge they are taking part in a potentially dangerous activity.

Again the difference between perceived risk and actual risk is massive.
is very similar to many drivers’ opinions on us being on the roads, only the user, source of risk and place really changes ..

is very similar to many drivers’ opinions on us being on the roads, only the user, source of risk and place really changes ..

This may be their opinion, but it doesn’t change the fact my bike couldn’t kick your head off at the slightest provocation.

…it does have a saddle, and smell of horse poo, though.

…dear lord, did I type incite and not insight in my last post?….<hangs head in shame> 😀

My point is that a bike doesn’t have a mind of its own (although when I am riding it can seem that way). I have seen motorists fly past horses that were otherwise ok and scare the shit out of them. But I have also seen skittish horses bounding sideways down a road at the approach of a car doing 5mph. In one case down the middle of a road towards a blind bend. Such horses and riders should not be on the roads or bridleways or anywhere else outside of an enclosure. The problem is that the embarrassed horse rider often immediately rounds on the driver or cyclist when it is actually their negligence (either in taking out a horse that is known to be problem or not being able to control the horse) that has caused the problem.

If everyone was responsible and reasonable there would be none of these kinds of problems!

Oh, and if you don’t own a horse box, but have a skittish horse that cannot be trusted to share the road with anyone else, then don’t **** ride it.

horse track made by horse riders for horse riders, adopted by mtbers as a long and gruelling but ultimately not much fun* bike route. You’re on dodgy ground there**

*opinions differ YMMV
**BW so everyone should have equal rights according to my earlier post, but you seemed to be implying some MTB proprietary

No, not implying bikes have any kind of proprietary over the MTL, but the southern section has relatively heavy bike traffic not least as a lot of it gets used as a route from Rochdale up to Lee/Cragg. While you’re absolutely right the work to open it out was done by horse riders, we do have a right to use it and I’d suggest that knowingly riding an animal frightened of bikes along it shows a lack of circumspection.

I also wonder what exactly the problem was the day in question as I wasn’t actually riding my bike at the time the rider decided to have a go…

What’s wrong with a bit of courtesy? Horses are flight animals, they can be a bit skittish. Slow down.

I met a couple of horse riders once on a fire road. Despite slowing down to walking pace one of the horses went mental as I went by, the other rider explained horse #1 was petrified by bikes. Fair enough. I was in Glentress…

Slow down.

unfortunately slowing down or even stopping getting off your bike and sitting on a wall still sometimes upsets horses and horsists.

Ratherbeintobago, I’ve reread it, as usual I was talking wiffle, apologies.

is very similar to many drivers’ opinions on us being on the roads, only the user, source of risk and place really changes ..

at the risk of wiffling again, bad analogy Shirley? Give a cyclist a decent amount of space when passing and they’ll be fine, give a horse a decent amount of space and they may still spook due to any number of seemingly bizarre reasons.

The real villain of this story is not the mountain bikers jumping over horses heads or the horse riders with their trails of poo (or even the ramblers and their pointless walking poles). It’s the media.

They seem to prefer to trot out* these Day Today “It’s WAR!!!” style featurettes designed to stir up both sides and create more antagonism amongst users of the countryside than print something that might actually help the situation.

*soz

at the risk of wiffling again, bad analogy Shirley? Give a cyclist a decent amount of space when passing and they’ll be fine, give a horse a decent amount of space and they may still spook due to any number of seemingly bizarre reasons.

Innacurate analogy yes, was just commenting on the ‘you need to accept risk just by us both being there’ view that some have that the poster had raised. Space isn’t really what horse riders need though, more to it than that.

may still spook due to any number of seemingly bizarre reasons / unfortunately slowing down or even stopping getting off your bike and sitting on a wall still sometimes upsets horses and horsists.

As said before, all you can do is know what is and do the right thing by 95% of horses and riders. A few may still spook but it’s rare and usually nothing major, the perception that ‘whatever you do they’re likely to spook’ imo is either justifying experiences seen by not taking enough or the right care, or maybe even perception that comes from rarely actually doing the right thing. Animals are unpredictable, but we know that so take it into account and all’s well ime. Not much more to it than that.

It’s the media.

Agreed. And it plays into the hands of those who’d rather not think of much but themselves.

I’m a cyclist who rides horses so I guess I might as well just punch myself in the face

For buying newspapers, and thus funding such alarmist nonsense, Guardian readers should be flogged, along with their Daily Wail and Daily Expats counterparts.

As soon as those scrotum gobbling horse riders lose their sense of entitlement and start cleaning up the turd their horses drop everywhere, maybe I’ll think about not speeding up and screaming when I ride past one!

I have pretty much read this thread from end to end, and told myself over and over not to reply…. but I just can’t help myself.

There is a local group of cyclists who, every year, do a fancy dress ride for charity. The other day, while riding my horse I encountered several cycle mounted characters from Star Wars. A couple of years ago I came across a large group of cycling Elvis impersonators and we have also had Arab terrorists, complete with vests covered in dynamite.

On every occasion my horse has reacted the same way, or more accurately, failed to react at all.

On another occasion we were passed, on the road, by a large group of riders on mtb’s, again, no reaction, other than to investigate if any of them had anything tasty to eat. An hour later, when I was on a particularly steep and rocky climb, I met the mtb’ers again, only they were now coming down! The riders were excellent and called back to warn others in the group and I rode my horse as far off the track as possible which was fine by him, as there was some yummy grass there.

The point I’m making as a horseman, is that not all horses are potential unexploded bombs and they don’t all spook at the drop of a hat. It also has a LOT to do with the horses rider, and here is where most of the problem lies.

As a cyclist, I often come across horse riders on the quiet country roads I use, for this reason I have fitted a bell to my training bike, a quick PING lets both horse and rider know you are there, and a few words exchanged will sort out if the horse is nervous or not. If it is, I talk to the horse as I go past.

I have met lots of horses as a cyclist and lots of cyclists as a horseman, I’ve never had any trouble in either role due to consideration from both parties.

It’s probably already been covered, but I was on a horse which bolted because of another horse. It was scary but it didn’t lead me to want to ban other horses from being near when I was out.
It, however, made me more aware of possible situations when riding both horse and bike.

I don’t wish to read the whole thread, but I always stop for horses. Or at least trundle once I know they’re going to be ok with it.

I don’t meet many, however, so this policy does not detract much from my rides. If a local trail was likely to bring me close to lots of horses however I don’t think I’d ride it.

A horse MAY spook at the drop of hat, but it’s much more likley to spook because of your actions as an MTBer. And the fact that it may spook at anything doesn’t excuse you not caring about spooking it.

Just wait until you pass a horse that likes going out with bike riders. Following you and attempting to bite the bars if you go too fast. (He’s gone to the glue pot in the sky now but a bit of a character when we used to go out riding together).

I had a friend who had a horse who hated cyclists, and would bite them. She’d meet cyclists going up climbs in the local forest and the horse would get closer and closer, then they’d get to the descent just in time.. then repeat.