I’m looking at buying a set of Hope Tech 3 E4 brakes, or, a set of Shimano Zee M640 and am looking for real-world usage feedback to help me choose. Riding is a mixture of all types, excepting DH. I weigh 80kg and am riding a 150mm travel full-suss.

Background – I’m after some new brakes. I want to be able to modulate my braking and not have ‘grabby’ brakes – but – I want to be able to have very powerful brakes which I can apply serious amounts of braking with, without having to apply loads of finger pressure. The ideal would be a lever which allows you to feather the braking with a gentle pull, but which has the ability to lock the wheel up with a firm finger pressure. I also need the lever travel/feel to stay consistent during use and as the pads wear down.

Presumptions – Both brakes are very reliable. Hope has a far nicer product, with far better spares availability. The Zee’s will probably need replacing after a few years of hard use, whereas the Hopes can be rebuilt and serviced and will give more years of service.

The performance of the brake is far more important to me than the lifespan and serviceability, as long as it gives a few years very reliable service. I do like the build quality of the Hopes and if possible to support a UK company.

The pricing isn’t an issue.

I’ve not tried Zee’s at all.

I have ‘car park’ tested some Hope E4’s and was slightly disappointed/confused that although gentle braking felt great, that they required a serious amount of finger pressure on the lever to lock a wheel up.

As another reference point – Reading this months online Enduro magazine, they have a brake test which shows the Hope E4 taking twice as long to de-accelerate a test rig, when compared to Saints or XT’s for the same finger pressure. The E4,s do deliver the same braking performance in another part of the test however when a massive amount of brake lever pressure is applied. They do comment that the Hope E4 requires a rider to pull harder than the other brakes on test in order to brake hard. This backs up the test results.

So…do I buy Hope’s at the risk i am frustrated by the amount of effort it takes to brake really hard ( and end up with sore hands/arms on uplift days) or do I buy Zee’s ??

Please help me decide 😉

I have no experience of the hopes but i have been running a set of the zees for a few months.

I absolutely love them tbh, very good modulation but with a bit more pressure i come to a dead stop. I know what you mean about them being replaced in a couple of years but i got them pretty cheap from a german site so i am not bothered.

Ace brakes. Same weight as the SLX with way better feel.

Only downside is my stock of brakepads are now redundant 🙁

Mactheknife – thanks, have you found that the lever position and bite point have changed much, as the pads have worn ( my current brakes really suffer from the bite point changing as the pads wear down and it’s something I’d rather avoid)

Not particularly to be honest, the bite point has remained pretty constant. I bled them from new as i had to swap the levers around as they were european style. But i could not get the lever close enough to the bar for my liking so i had to get some fluid out. Since then they have felt very consistant.

The lack of a tool free reach adjust does not matter to me either. It might to some but it stops me fiddling with stuff that just works 🙂

I love my E4’s. Have tried the current crop of Shimano brakes and now find them very grabby in comparison. I’m sure that I could live with it given time to adapt, but equally I don’t get any issues with arm pump and can’t say I notice having to swing on the levers too hard to get good braking performance out of the E4’s but I’m doing 30km descents most days of the week so maybe I’m just used to it now. I’d be saying Hope all the way, but really is a personal preference thing at the end of the day. They’ll both do the job very well and I suspect that either way you go you’ll get used to what you have.

Have got Zees and E4s on two similar bikes. The Zees are like Shimano’s take on the E4s. As easy to use and user-friendly as XTs same kind of lightweight feel and same modulation but the Zees have a huge amount of top end power they really haul you up if necessary. The E4s are very British with a purposeful, eager feel to them. Dinky and lightweight – more so than the brick-like Zees – they feel surgically precise and the modulation/power is immense compared to lever movement. I would agree that the E4s have a firmer pull.

I think if you’re looking for function and performance and value then look no further than the Zees but if you appreciate tactile controls and exquisite engineering then go for the Hopes you won’t be disappointed.

I definately like the idea of the engineering/quality of the Hopes.

Rocket man – when you say the E4 have a firmer pull, is it a lot firmer – and if you really want to burn off some speed very quickly, do you find it a struggle sometimes with the E4s (eg. Having to apply a load of brake lever force, when compared with the Zee’s)?

Tech 3 V4 without the braided hose? There’s no real weight difference then and they are a lot more powerful than the E4.

I’d recommend the Tech3 V4’s. Only cost 20 or 25 quid more than tech e4’s for a pair. I used to have Tech M4’s and the V’s have noticeably more stopping but delivered very smoothly.

I love my E4’s. Have tried the current crop of Shimano brakes and now find them very grabby in comparison.

My experience also.

E4 vs V4…. don’t see the point of the V4 unless you’re on a DH bike. For enduro riding, and hitting DH trails the E4 are more than plenty.

The v4’s are for dh, the e4’s are much better suited to trail riding, more than enough power.

when you say the E4 have a firmer pull, is it a lot firmer – and if you really want to burn off some speed very quickly, do you find it a struggle sometimes with the E4s (eg. Having to apply a load of brake lever force, when compared with the Zee’s)?

The Zees are typically effortless – some might say mushy – Shimano. A lot of power on tap with a light lever action. The Hopes are not actually that much harder to pull but they have a noticeably snappier return action. When you ease off with the Zees the levers go back to where they came from but the Hopes are actively pushing back all the time, like they’re spring loaded. I can’t say I’ve ever thought of it as a negative it feels pretty good to me.

They both have huge top end power – much more than XTs for example – and scrub off speed really quickly so in practice a few seconds of comitted braking makes a big difference there’s never been a time when I thought I wasn’t going to make it with either of them.

HTH

I don’t know where you got the impression that Shimano brakes will only last a few years..?? i have several sets that are still going strong that are a decade old and have only ever needed the odd bleed every now and then, as well as newer versions that are utterly faultless.

The new Zees are incredible, more brake than anyone will pretty much ever need on a 150mm travel bike, but superbly controlled and easy to modulate, certainly NOT grabby at all.

Hopes are nicely adjustable, but not in the same league as far as power and modulation go.

Hopes are nicely adjustable, but not in the same league as far as power and modulation go.

Given that shimanos are designed to get progressively weaker in power the further you pull the lever, and Hopes get progressively stronger the harder you pull… Hopes will always modulate better.

Try the new E4 or V4, in terms of power theyre a lot stronger than Zees.

I don’t know where you got the impression that Shimano brakes will only last a few years.

I’ve been through about 6 sets of Shimano brakes in the last 2 years, all failed at the lever or caliper seal. My experience is that theyre disposable.

rickon – Member

Given that shimanos are designed to get progressively weaker in power the further you pull the lever, and Hopes get progressively stronger the harder you pull… Hopes will always modulate better.

no they won’t

no they won’t

Oh yes they will.

Please explain why E4’s are more suited to trail riding. There is nothing that an E4 provides for trail riding over v4’s. The weight difference is negligable, both provide really good modulation but the v4’S have more overall top end power. Its more a case of E4’s not suitable for downhill as the v4’s rather than v4’s not as suitable for trail riding.

Had / have
Saint M820
XTR trail
XT
All the latest Shimano brakes still have the XT’s.

Now I moved from Hope a coupe of years ago having had M4 / Tech 4’s etc. Just fancied a change at the time and ended up trying some Shimanos, from that I was sold. Just recently dipped a toe back with the Tech 3 E4’s and IMO they are a different brake to the M4 s etc. So much modualted power with sublime feel, they are what I always wanted Hopes to be. The XTs can stay but the Hopes on the big bike blow the Shimano including Saint out of the field.

rickon – Member

no they won’t

Oh yes they will.

no they won’t, they will modulate the power delivery differently

no they won’t, they will modulate the power delivery differently

Yeah, the Shimanos modulate in a completely idiotic way.

The shimano approach makes no sense on paper but it actually works fine in practice- I think it makes more sense to have more subtlety for light braking, like Hope and Formula give you, but the Shimanos feel really nicely controlled braking at high power.

I think that’s a matter of taste more than anything else, I don’t particularly like it myself. It’s also possibly about differences in riding, really finessed power delivery at low inputs feels great for me but I reckon a faster/more hard hitting rider would care much less about that and more about getting the absolute most power down more easily where the Shimano approach could be better.

If say…. Brembo started offering motorbike racers brakes that modulated like Shimanos, they’d go bankrupt Northwind. I think it’s pretty silly of them, as designing a new cam so they modulate better wouldn’t be very hard to do.

I might then buy a set, as for the price they would then be nothing short of brilliant. Although Shimano do have their own issues with reliability as well.

I reckon a faster/more hard hitting rider would care much less about that and more about getting the absolute most power down more easily where the Shimano approach could be better.

The most common complaint from racers about Shimanos is that they lock up the rear wheel to frequently. They are no where near as intuitive to predictably brake with, having brakes that have a predictable early stroke is more important in the UK because of the frequent poor track conditions.

At the end of the day though, it’s subjective isn’t it? I don’t like Shimanos because of the way they feel. Some people do. Different things work for different people.

I’d quite like to try some of the Guide RSCs, people seem to be raving about them and I haven’t read about any issues with reliability. Good power, decent weight, modulate as well as Hopes apparently, more expensive than Shimanos but cheaper than Hopes. The whole Sram/Avid thing puts people off though.

Tom_W1987 – Member

If say…. Brembo started offering motorbike racers brakes that modulated like Shimanos, they’d go bankrupt Northwind.

I ****ing hated how my Brembos modulated, for whatever that’s worth 😆 All the power all the time, served me right for putting race parts on the road but I sold them and went back to my lovely R6 and Blade OE bits

But I’m not convinced you’re right (ah let’s be honest here, Brembo sell parts based on their name, you could put a Brembo sticker and some pretty machining on a tokico and it’d sell for £200)

I like the intuitive/simple delivery, which I think Hope and Formula both give, totally agree there… (maybe I’d like Magura but every time I use them I go “urgh, that’s weird” and I’ve never used them enough to get over that) But intuitiveness is less of a bonus when you spend a lot of time with a part, that’s when cleverness can be more useful- and a lot of people do love how Shimano work.

TBH I think you’re dismissing it because you don’t like it not rather than because it’s actually bad. I mean, look at Josh Bryceland, Saint M820 and a 203mm rear brake, we’d hate that but he wins the world cup with it and only loses the champs because he decided not to use it 😆

Thanks for all the feedback chaps.

Went for a set of Hope Tech 3 E4 in the end.

A few rides in now and I am very happy with them. Lovely progressive feel at the start of the lever pull and enough power to really stop when needed.

Set up was fairly easy, but I did find that piston setup and pad position in the calipers makes a massive diffence to the lever feel and performance.