If you want your suspension to move as freely as possible remove the rear shock and replace it with a banana. It will move a lot more freely than with the shock I gaurantee it.

As for diagrams and graphs and charts and a mountain of reports and other sh1te, not for me thanks. I'll leave the bullsh1tting to the governments and the fools that believe that kind of rubbish is worth doing.

Simple question though for anyone reading this who has any experience with bearings and isn't too afraid to actually contribute on this thread.

What happens when you rotate a performance bearings with close tolerances?

As for forks and stiction, we're discussing energy absorption properties and gains in efficiency on back ends due to running expensive quality bearings.

What on earth that has to do with forks or how you can compare the two is beyond me.

Is it? or is it not? the function of the back end to deal with energy or forces being applied to it.

Why do we run performance bearings in the car industry and don't you think if it was a good idea to run cheap rubbish the car industry being as cut throat as it is would use them?

Yes I know it's a different application but the same laws of physics apply.

As for forks and stiction, we're discussing energy absorption properties and gains in efficiency on back ends due to running expensive quality bearings.

What on earth that has to do with forks or how you can compare the two is beyond me.

Is it? or is it not? the function of the back end to deal with energy or forces being applied t

You don't make any sense. They are both shock absorbing systems…

My legs have more in common with forks than bearings and you're the one that doesn't make any sense.

Quality bearings should be run as they deal with forces more efficiently and as such last longer, is this statement true or false?

As for diagrams and graphs and charts and a mountain of reports and other sh1te, not for me thanks. I'll leave the bullsh1tting to the governments and the fools that believe that kind of rubbish is worth doing.

Yeah good point, scientific testing is totally pointless and only numptys pay any attention to it.

If you claim your product is better – you have to be able to prove it… other wise it in itself is 'bullsh1tting' non?

If you want your suspension to move as freely as possible remove the rear shock and replace it with a banana. It will move a lot more freely than with the shock I gaurantee it.

You are manipulating what i am asking/saying. I put it again… are you stating that a back end with loads of resistance to movement contributes successfully to an efficient suspension system?

Just answer the question with facts rather than nonsense please and you will become a LOT more credible. This is not a dig, it is a genuine request for info.

I buy heaps of bearings and want the best – what i also want it clarity and honesty from my suppliers as to the exact proven benefits.

can i tag another pro 2 problem into this thred?

I have a pro 2 rear hub currently fitted with a 12mm axle and i am looking to remove this and repace it with the qr axel i have bought for it. have tried to reverse engineer the video on Hope's website to no avail.

Any hints would be great

pop off the caps – remove cassette – bash out the axle and one bearing – insert the new QR axle and bearing – use a driver (makeshift socket or the hope driver) – reinstall the cassettes and end caps – done 🙂

Markd I am not manipulating what you are saying I am simply shining the light of logical analysis on it. I did not say loads of resistance to movement I said slight resistance although the resistance is propotional the the energy applied to the bearing.

Here is a question for you, When you rotate a performance bearing in your hands is it easier or harder to rotate than a generic bearing.

Rusty mac can you wait until tomorrow and I will do a review on how to service the pro 2 rear

@Rusty @Kaesase – did this one a while ago :

http://cyclistno1.co.uk/features/maintenance/hope-pro-ii-rear-hub-service.htm

Markd scientific research proves what ever those funding it want it to prove. Either that or the researchers join the dole que.

As I have said practical application hands on experience, I don't have to do the research I only have to evaluate it. Speak to giant or specialized and ask them what bearings they run in thier race teams and why.

Damn, and I was determined not to like you foxy and you go away and prove that you help people get out biking. Not the way I would have done the hub but not bad for an amateur mechanic.

Yup I am amateur and have no quarms with that – I do not earn money from it therefore cannot call myself a professional – I am happy to help people on STW and they also are a great help to me when I have problems I cannot sort myself 🙂

BTW this is the way Hope do it more or less – In what way is your technique different Kaesase?

Who you calling kaesase?

Hey foxy. my technique is only slightly different to remove the bearings I would use my bearing puller on the ones I can and to press the bearings back in I would use the old bearings as long as they haven't collapsed as a drift.

Old bearings are the exact size as the ones going in so it's a lot harder to damage them. for the freehub bearings I would have pressed them back in with your vice and the old bearings.

That said it's a great guide and good to see someone helping out other riders.

Just tried Kaesae's "stack of 2ps" technique to remove a stuck freehub and can report back. It's gash.

There's a tiny amount of room under the lockring – I tried using 2 coins and stripped a bit of the thread out of the end of the freehub body, so just put 1 in.

Tightened up the lockring, tightened it up a bit more, freehub not moving at all, then a thought – I don't have a vice (probably wouldn't be in this predicament if I did) so how am I going to get the lockring off again if there isn't a cassette on there?

Cue much faffing with molegrips, cloths (to stop the freehub body getting marked) and lockring tool (which kept popping out as it only had 1-2mm depth of engagement). Result, 1 marked freehub (the molegrip jaws went through the cloth slightly), still firmly on cassette body. I suspect that if I'd continued I would have done the axle a mischief too.

The moral of the story: don't take mechanical advice from people on internet forums with obvious mental health issues. Self-evident really. 🙄

mr agreeable

any chance you could show us some photo's?

and run us through exactly what you did.

Not that I don't believe a word you say, but there wouldn't be much of a story if it didn't work and no dramatic intro for your purse swinging episode.

Kaesae.

I personally hate the 'lynch mob' attitude that is sometimes displayed on the STW forum but your opinion that bearings should absorb energy is not correct.

A bearings function in this instance is to allow a movement, and to facilitate this with as little friction as possible. (The reasoning behind ceramic bearings is the same (alongside durability) – less friction due to to a harder and rounder ball with less pitting)

BOS suspension use needle bearing eyelets in their rear shock as an exapmle, to decrease stiction, they are also beautifully stiction-free shocks – By running a bearing that is 'tight' you remove this performance benefit and decrease small bump sensitivity.

Your packing the bearings with grease, i assume by removing the seal, overfilling and re-installing the seal with excess grease being pushed out? – Your improving longevity but increasing friction greatly.

Racers (in WC arenas as time is tight) often remove grease entirely fromt their bearing and run oil – sometimes without the seals to futher decrease friction.

Maybe you need to market the bearings as 'longer lasting' or 'more durable' because on a high-end suspension bike or hub that the owner is racing on they will be happy to replace bearings every 6months – 1 year to have their bike performing as intended.

SKF etc are not silly – they use a certain amount of grease for a reason, i know an argument is they are not designed for 'outdoor use' and this may be true, it is therefore best to look at sealing options to prevent ingress.

Rant over – The bearing kits are a great idea but dont get drawn into overcomplcating things…..

Kaesae,

the bearings and press arrived yesterday. Fantastic value at £0.00.
Fitting tomorrow, so thanks again.

The moral of the story: don't take mechanical advice from people on internet forums with obvious mental health issues.

Is generosity seen as a mental health issue these days? How odd.

Bearings came yesterday feeling very good fitted this guy is just trying to help people out

crankrider

Can you tell me what kind of bearings you run in your frames and what kind of frame you have?

Hey. Boxelder I sent you the wrong size of tool to remove the incerts on the rocker plate bearings for the Kona King. I will post out another one tomorrow. That's what the shoulder screw is for by the way but it's the wrong size. I will help with the frame service if you need me to.

Hello shorty121 you're wasting your breath they are all very frustrated on here, got a lot of pent up emotions to release. Glad you like the bearings can you keep in touch and let me know how you get on with them.

Although I've been doing the budget bearings for a while to learn about bearings and develop my tooling. I only launched the performance range a month ago. Although I've been running them for a year in bikes it's still early days.

crankrider ceramic bearings? what kind of ceramic, alumina, zirconia black silicon nitride, of which there are three different kind reaction bonded hot pressed or sintered. The idea behind the ceramic is sound but they still have a long way to go before I would run them. Saying that I have some ceramic high breed bearings here and have had them for over a year.

Same question that I asked earlier that still hasn't been answered what happens when you rotate a performance bearing?

Your answering statements with questions, it is irrelevant which type of ceramic bearing i was referring to, i was simply stating one of the reasons behind them being used is decreased friction. You have homed in on the science behind a ceramic bearing and avoided my comments about increased friction resulting in decreased performance in a small impact situation – what do you think about this?

Being honest, if my frame was as tight through its movement as the coiler in your video i would suspect alignment trouble – you had to physically push it down, just think how hard the impact would have to be before this initial friction is overcome!

You even put 'tell that to the race teams' when someone makes the same comment as me – As i stated above, race teams run grease, not oil and even remove seals to increase performance, ask them – Chris Kind even mention it in an article about their bb's: for race-day run oil.

What do you think about my comment that your bearings (which are not your bearings at all, they are simply greased packed bearings from a massive bearing manufacturer) will offer increased durability and longevity in poor conditions at the expense of intended performance?

Comment on your theory of bearings 'absorbing energy' as being a good thing – how can this be? A rear shock is tuned and adjusted to react to a moment with consitancy and control. Speak to a frame manufacturer, ask them if bearings are there to absorb bump forces or to transfer them – its like saying a bottom bracket bearing is there to absorb pedalling energy, a time trial rider would have a fit!

I am just offering my opinion and NOT hating but i find your replies frustrating, your comments have no justification. – you have a potentially good service, offering replacement full sets of bearings to suit frames with tooling and advice for fitting – VERY helpfull. All i am saying is dont complicate matters by aggrivating potential customers with arrogant comments about your beings being superior – many have very good techicnal knowlege and know what they need.

Just look here at what this thread has done for your reputation on another forum – Entirely due to your comments: http://www.southerndownhill.com/forum/index.php/topic,224915.0.html

Oh, i run skf beaings in an intense vpp frame, they have been there for quite some time now – play free and VERY friction free operation – I would be happy though not to get them from the bearing supplier and order online from someone like you…

Very good crank rider but all that proves is that a lot of the people out there are idiots and you can easily manipulate them.

Of course you want a stiff back end and you want the energy to be channeled in a focused manner. If it wasn't stiff it would move from side to side, a lot of riders run their frames like that but it's not for me.

As for stiction or friction, I never said stiction I said energy absorption. As always those with a limited intellect use idiotic nonsense to argue their cases.

Let me answer my own question about the feel of top end bearings, since you continue to avoid it.

When you rotate a performance bearing it feels stiff or tight as a result of the close tolerances. In simple terms it is a bit harder to rotate than a Chinese or generic bearing. How can it be harder to rotate but not resist movement or absorb energy. This isn't a bad resistance just as a shock resisting movement isn't a bad thing as long as it's done in a controlled efficient way.

Now I would waste more time trying to point out the obvious, that performance bearings perform better by being able to deal with greater amounts of energy but TV and idiocy go together like delusion and fools.

I said quality bearings should slightly resist movement not simply resist movement. Start a thread and sure enough the online sheep will follow you BBAAA BBAAA BBAAA

kaesae – how the hell do my comments mean people are idiots and easily manipulated?

YOU DO NOT WANT A STIFF BACK END HOW YOU PERCIEVE IT it only needs to be laterally not vertically stiff, for god sake use some common sense…

You have an attitude problem, have limited engineering knowlege clearly shown by your completely incorrect understanding of suspension systems, bearings and the transter of impact forces and 'moments and how your 'tight' bearings are detremental to certain aspects of this.

A bearings job is not to ever 'resist movement' – My input on this is over, you have no ability to substantiate any of the claims or opinions of your own, all of which are not shared by anyonre with real knowlege.

If you want this to be a business for god sake please start trying to make a profit too, giving away countless packets of your stock cant help! Please realise your not helpint people on here by giving them bearings, most have plenty enough cash for a bearing change, go to a race if you want to do this and help the kids out who run around on a shoe-string!

Night… im done, good luck with the business, i fear you will need it with the attitude and bulls**t that you spout which is a shame as you had potential to fill a hole in the market,

crankrider
crank rider every single person on this site who is a veteran of living in shitty little Britain knows that when someone is being nice it's time to be on your guard.

You come over as being all helpful and sincere and pretend you know about bearings. However what is the likely hood of a thread starting on another website at the exact time that you are over here discussing it and could really do with your point being proven? Coincidence, you reading this decide.

You're an expert at manipulating people as the other thread shows, only problem sunshine no one will be fooled by you on here they're also all experts at online exchanges.

As for not giving away bearings and advising me to be a tight ass, I don't need to be a banker the world is already full of them. I help out skint people or local riders all the time a lot of the time for free or next to it. Oh look I can do links as well
http://www.descent-world.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2126.0.html

Anyone that needs a hand to go biking only has to ask if I can help I will.

This may come as a shock crank rider but I was talking about laterally stiff the only way to have that is for it to be very slightly(a very very very small amount, so there's no way for you to twist this statement around to suit your argument)vertically stiff.

This is how to check your bearings for anyone interested and proves that I'm talking about laterally stiff and yes smooth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tREkC3fVzXM

As for how hard I had to push the back end? The lightest shock spring weight I have ever seen is 250lbs. The amount of pressure needed to move the rear end is minimal. Since we do not seem to be able to come to an understanding as you refuse to do any research or actually look into the subject.

How many frames have you serviced and what do the riders of the frames who you keep in contact with think of their performance?
Why don't we simply have two riders who own a Kona frame and who need the bearings changed fit the bearings and see what they think.

Yes I know we won't have loads of flowery words and graphs or paper work. But on the bright side we will get to find out what the actual riders think of the kits and what it really does to the frames and as a result the whole bikes.

Show me a quick clip of your Kona frame that needs a bearing kit via you tube and I will give you a bearing kit. I guarantee the bearing kit will make the frame run superb and that it will last for years.
Anyone interested in doing some research that will benefit the MTB community rather than the greedy bankers of the world let me know.

Me, Me.
Bearings needed here for a Kona King ('08 I think). Don't have a video camera or nowse for Youtube, but they're near to collapse – I can tell by moving the rear end when the shock is out.

If they're as good as the Pro 2 bearings you gave me, I'll happily pay/cover costs whatever.

Ta

Aye the hope pro 2 bearings were grand 🙂

any chance you could show us some photo's?

Got better things to do with my time, sorry.

and run us through exactly what you did.

I tried using 2 coins and stripped a bit of the thread out of the end of the freehub body, so just put 1 in.

Tightened up the lockring, tightened it up a bit more, freehub not moving at all, then a thought – I don't have a vice (probably wouldn't be in this predicament if I did) so how am I going to get the lockring off again if there isn't a cassette on there?

Cue much faffing with molegrips, cloths (to stop the freehub body getting marked) and lockring tool (which kept popping out as it only had 1-2mm depth of engagement). Result, 1 marked freehub (the molegrip jaws went through the cloth slightly), still firmly on cassette body. I suspect that if I'd continued I would have done the axle a mischief too.

The lockring was a standard Shimano one and the 2ps were the usual tender of the realm. It might work with a new hub like the one in your Youtube vid, but for one that's stuck fast I'd pop it in a Workmate or vice, or take it to a shop and let them sort it.

To kaesae and foxyrider

Thank you for your help and advice it is very much appreciated. I'm most of the way there now, just need to borrow some tools from work to knock the axel out and something to re-seat that internal bearing.

Thanks again

Rusty

I must say the 2p idea is really good mine was really stuck got 2 people with a vice to try and lift it off but then used the 2p's and it worked a charm. If the lock ring is slipping then you might need to get a fresh lock ring and have ago I did that