About bloody time the greatest engine manufacturer in the world returns to F1….

Just need a new civic type r to arrive as well !

I think Toyota or Mazda should be there too.

😀

p/s: Mazda with their rotary engine should be interesting …

Toyota may well be.

What are the 2014 engine regs ?

In basic terms, 1.6 L V6 turbo.

They wanted 4 cylinders but Ferrari vetoed as it bore no relation to their future road engines.

Power expectations ?

BMW are back in F1?????? 😉

Power is down a bit on the engines, but overall output the same.

At the minute KERS provides about 80hp boost for a few seconds(6 I think). Next year they have ERS (energy recovery system) which is a 160hp boost for about 33 secs per lap,so overall output is still around 750-800hp (or so i;m led to believe)

I really want Toyota back, if nothing else so the TTE factory comes back to make epic special editions again.

Anybody any idea on restrictions limiting power on the 1.6 Turbo’s for next year?

Currently the 2.4 V8’s only have a rev limit stopping them making more than about 750bhp right? Are there boost restrictions and/or inlet restrictors and/or bore/stroke ratio limits being imposed to stop these things churning out way over 1000bhp like they did in the mid 80’s?

Another question, does anybody know about fuel tank restrictions? I can kind of imagine it becoming like MotoGp where you are limited on tank size and hence can’t run high power levels for a whole race even though the engines are capable of it.

I can kind of imagine it becoming like MotoGp where you are limited on tank size and hence can’t run high power levels for a whole race even though the engines are capable of it.

Isnt it like that already? or is it just they choose to put less in so they dont carry as much weight?

Maybe it is, but I’ve never really noticed it. Motogp isn’t like it so much but I just remember the 990 days where everything went like **** off a shovel in quali but was somewhat slower come the race.

the last few F1 races ive watched always had someone running slower or stopping just over the line to conserve fuel. Sorry, no idea about GP, not really followed that much.

Ok, here goes,

The basics:

500bar Fuel injection pressure limit
15,000 Maximum rpm, down from 18,000rpm
100kg fuel, down from 160kg
100kg is the maximum fuel flow rate allowed per hour, so fuel efficiency is vital. They have to be 30% more efficient than the previous engines while trying to achieve the same output.(750bhp)

Two types of energy recovery:(ERS)

Heat as well as kinetic energy may now be recovered.

The regulations refer to the two devices as the ‘Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic’ and ‘Motor Generator Unit – Heat’. The latter uses heat energy from the turbo to generate electrical energy.

161bhp Power boost from ERS, up from 80bhp from KERS
33.3s Duration of boost available, up from 6.7s
2MJ Maximum energy that can be harvested from ERS, up from 400kJ
4MJ Maximum energy that can be used from ERS, up from 400kJ

Only 5 engines per driver per season, down from 8, they have to last twice the distance of the previous engines. Also, if there is a failure of ERS, turbo, an exhaust, battery or control electronics failure you will have to use a sixth power unit and incur a 10 place penalty. Today it’s only the engine itself which attracts a penalty.

Thermal efficiency 40%, up from 30%.

That sounds like a nightmare!

Just need a new civic type r to arrive as well !

Not too long a wait for that! 😉

BMW are back in F1??????

Sadly, we’ll never see the glory days of 1300bhp from a production block based 1.5t four again.

Andy

That sounds like a nightmare!

For who? The designers? That’s the point… If say otherwise it sounds like a VERY good step in the right direction to bring F1 technology more inline with what is relevant to modern production cars. Reducing their fuel load by 30% is a good move I think, it forces the designers to create much more efficient engines rather than just chuck a bit more fuel in. F1 has always been the most interesting (in my eyes) in the eras when refuelling has not been allowed. Back in the last turbo era, the cars had 220 litre fuel tanks to last a 200 mile race! More than a litre of juice per mile is about 4mpg!!! Thing is, until refuelling was banned a few years ago, even the modern 2.4 V8’s which were screaming round to about 20krpm at the time, were only achieving about the same economy as the old 1.5 turbo cars! Didn’t matter though, they were allowed to refuel as much as they wanted in a race, with refuelling lines capable of delivering 12 litres per second…

Suddenly they had to get a bit more efficient when they dropped the rpm limit to 18k and banned refuelling. These new rules are a good step in the right direction in my eyes.

I just wish they’d allow some technology back in that’s been on road cars for donkeys! Not necessarily driver aids, but when Honda introduced variable valve timing on road cars in the 80’s, and its still banned in F1 today, its a bit silly I think! VVT isn’t a driver aid, why ban it?

Be interesting to see if we start getting “qualifying trim” cars again next year though, looks to me like the rules are open to over boosting the cars for a short one hit qualifying lap…

Oh jeez. Let’s just bung some TDIs in them and have done with it. 😆 They’re not road cars, this whole fuel efficiency drive is completely pointless. You could eliminate the same amount of fuel, probably tenfold in fact just by eliminating some of the shitty sand tedium-fest tilkedromes that nobody gives a crap about.

VVT is pointless in a racing car, because you don’t need a broad spread of torque with a seven (8 in 2014) speed gearbox. I’d guess it’s banned because you could use it to emulate traction control.

Oh jeez. Let’s just bung some TDIs in them and have done with it. They’re not road cars, this whole fuel efficiency drive is completely pointless. You could eliminate the same amount of fuel, probably tenfold in fact just by eliminating some of the shitty sand tedium-fest tilkedromes that nobody gives a crap about.

Oh brilliant, another Luddite to add fuel to the flames of anti Motorsport lobbyists! Motorsport has to change and be relevant to the times, otherwise it just dies in the water. 500cc GP bikes were all but dead as a spectator sport, the formula was developing technology that was useless to nobody, and nobody watched it. They introduced 990cc 4 strokes for the 2002 season or “diesels” as the purist diehards that insisted it would kill the formula called them, and crowds were more than twice the size overnight at races, and TV viewing figures shot up!

VVT is pointless in a racing car, because you don’t need a broad spread of torque with a seven (8 in 2014) speed gearbox. I’d guess it’s banned because you could use it to emulate traction control.

Far from it, it’s not just to broaden a power band within an engines operating range, but can be used to increase engine efficiency at certain rev ranges whilst also allowing it to still produce high end power. Running 8 speed gearboxes is IMO far less relevant than allowing VVT would be.

One things for sure anyway next year… With less pistons and a lower RPM limit, they’re certainly going to sound better than the current perfectly balanced sewing machines!!! :-p

mboy – Member
Oh brilliant, another Luddite to add fuel to the flames of anti Motorsport lobbyists! Motorsport has to change and be relevant to the times, otherwise it just dies in the water. 500cc GP bikes were all but dead as a spectator sport, the formula was developing technology that was useless to nobody, and nobody watched it. They introduced 990cc 4 strokes for the 2002 season or “diesels” as the purist diehards that insisted it would kill the formula called them, and crowds were more than twice the size overnight at races, and TV viewing figures shot up!

🙄 oh yes, I don’t agree with you so I’m a luddite. F1 is entertainment, I’m against any change which makes it less exciting. Look at what happened to WRC rally & touring cars. Boring cars=nobody watches.

Far from it, it’s not just to broaden a power band within an engines operating range, but can be used to increase engine efficiency at certain rev ranges whilst also allowing it to still produce high end power. Running 8 speed gearboxes is IMO far less relevant than allowing VVT would be.

On a road car yes, but on a V8 F1 car you are always between 16k and 18k RPM. No doubt on the turbo engines, they’ll spend all their time with 13 an 15k (or between 10 an 12k if the rumours are to be believed). Even when VVT was allowed, it was not used AFAIK. Happy to be corrected on that.
I don’t understand what you mean about 8 speed gearboxes being less relevant. They’re here and a lot of cars use them already. Jaguar F type, Range Rover, Audi A8, BMW 1,3 & 5 series etc.

I’m against any change which makes it less exciting.

I’ll agree with you there, but I don’t think the new rules will make it any less exciting. Far from it, I think they’ll make it more exciting! We’re not losing any power, the 2014 cars will have as much if not more overall power, much more midrange (though unnecessary with an 8spd gearbox like you say), and as a result they’ll almost certainly be quicker despite being much more economical.

They’re not going to be light pressure turbo’s either. It was only in qualifying trim and on 110 plus octane fuel that any of the old 1.5 turbo engines from the 80’s produced over 1000bhp, most of them evolved to around 750-800bhp in race trim, which is what we’ll see from these new engines. They won’t have some tiny little excuse for a turbo that boosts midrange from 1500-4000 rpm, these things are still gonna be boosting at over 3bar I’d guess, with pretty hairy cams still to enable up to 15000rpm. They’ll be closer to the old mid 80’s turbo cars than people think they will be! Just watched a YouTube clip of Senna’s 1988 MP4/4 being warmed up then given some stick recently, and it brought back so many fond memories. Those old Honda V6’s didn’t rev much over 11krpm but were peaky as hell! No power til about 9krpm then all over in moments. VVT could be used to help overcome some of the monstrous turbo lag, but also like I said before, to improve efficiency.

These new engines are going to be impressive feats of engineering to get the best part of 500bhp per litre out of them (forced induction or not) and improve thermal efficiency from 30 to 40% and return 30% or more better economy!

And that’s the point for me… Formula 1 isn’t just about the racing, it’s about pushing the boundaries of technology. I wouldn’t like to see technology detract from the racing (so we agree there) but I don’t think it will this time.

Oh and aware several cars have 8spd autos on the road these days, but VVT has been in most production cars for the last decade at least, and some much longer than that. 8spd boxes in road cars are for efficiency, so they can tickover on the motorway at 80mph but still pull away from rest easily with 5 up and a full load in the boot, not so the revs only drop 7-8% inbetween full throttle gear changes.

Yeah I hope you’re right 8)

Technology wise, I think the KERS recovery from the turbo is very cool, and I think that can actually run in reverse to spool up the turbo with virtually no lag.

ERS sounds interesting. How are they going to do it? Miniature steam turbines?!?

More intrigued by the reverse KERS to spool up a turbo.

Seebeck thermoelectric generators for the Heat to Electrical energy conversion?

500cc GP bikes were all but dead as a spectator sport, the formula was developing technology that was useless to nobody, and nobody watched it. They introduced 990cc 4 strokes for the 2002 season or “diesels” as the purist diehards that insisted it would kill the formula called them, and crowds were more than twice the size overnight at races, and TV viewing figures shot up!

I can’t imagine the average spectator gave a shit about the technology. It was probably more down to the increased noise in the press because of the changes and the shake-up of the established order that a massive rule change gives rather than what’s under the skin. F1 won’t get more viewers because they have turbo engines any more than KERS brought in viewers; a better spectacle will do that.

One thing they could do to improve F1 is get rid of the Monaco GP. Yes I know history tradition yadda yadda yadda, but to echo Coulthard, it’s very boring. Apart from the crashes I suppose, but there’s hardly any overtaking and it’s the most processional race on the calendar. It only remains because of the ‘glamour’ of Monaco, and to me, it should be about the sport, not a bunch of vulgar rich people. Time to get rid.

Interesting! I never knew about those…

Miniature steam turbines

…..Coming to a BMW road car near you (possibly) soon (well, sometime, if they can get ot to work).

Haha beat me to it:

Turbosteamer!!

One thing they could do to improve F1 is get rid of the Monaco GP.

You know, I was thinking the same thing. However, I enjoyed the race on Sunday (just watched it today on iPlayer) and it is the one where all the filmstars turn up, which is good for business..

Plus it serves as a reminder of how crap F1 used to be before the current tyre and no refueling shenanigans!!

One thing they could do to improve F1 is get rid of the Monaco GP. Yes I know history tradition yadda yadda yadda, but to echo Coulthard, it’s very boring. Apart from the crashes I suppose, but there’s hardly any overtaking and it’s the most processional race on the calendar. It only remains because of the ‘glamour’ of Monaco, and to me, it should be about the sport, not a bunch of vulgar rich people. Time to get rid.

You clearly watched a different race to me this weekend

I watched the same race as David Coulthard. Who probably knows a bit more about F1 than you or I.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22678909

DC’s complaint seems to be about race pace though – and that’s down to Pirelli’s tyres and the fact that they are still testing/developing them with a car that would struggle in a GP2 race, let alone F1. Hence the whole Merc tyre test shenanigns which has caused a ruckus this weekend.

Seems that behind the scenes all is not well in the land of F1 – this article shows that the teams aren’t happy with the costs of some of the changes, there’s no new Concorde agreeement, Ecclestone is potentially facing court/jail, CVC are trying to float F1 as an exit strategy and Todt’s first term as FIA president is coming to a close (he originally said he’d only serve one term).

id.

quartz – Member
One thing they could do to improve F1 is get rid of the Monaco GP. Yes I know history tradition yadda yadda yadda, but to echo Coulthard, it’s very boring. Apart from the crashes I suppose, but there’s hardly any overtaking and it’s the most processional race on the calendar. It only remains because of the ‘glamour’ of Monaco, and to me, it should be about the sport, not a bunch of vulgar rich people. Time to get rid.

+1. It was the most processional race for a long time. Sutil made a few chance moves where the more experienced boys who were playing the long game pretty much conceded the position and let him through.

Only other person getting a wriggle on was Perez and his tactic was ‘I’m coming through, don’t get in my way’, which worked until he messed with Raikonnen one too many times who didn’t yield as Perez’s move required for it to work…

I don’t think they need to get rid of the Monaco GP, the could definitely update the track a little to aid overtaking.

Obviously being a street course there are limits but changing the “Nouvelle” (tunnel) chicane so it was a definite overtaking opportunity rather than a lunge and hope the guy you are trying to pass spots you shouldn’t be too hard.

Smoothing out the pit “straight” so the overtaking line is less bumpy and changing the entry to Ste Devote to make it more of an overtaking opportunity should be possible too.