Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 46 total)
  • Home Cinema: Quiet dialog in multi-channel DTS.
  • medlow
    Free Member

    I have just been drooling over the speakers in the other thread, and it reminded me of a long standing issue I have with my setup.

    Speakers: Kef 1005.1 5.1.
    Receiver: Yamaha RX-S600.
    Source: WD-TV network streamer, varying file formats from x264, MP4 etc. Via HDMI.

    I have never been able to listen to a movie without having to alter the volume to increase the dialog then turn it down when the action stars.
    Its a pain in the 4ss! The explosions are too loud and the talking is too quiet.

    I have done the usuals like increase the centre channel level higher than all the others. This made a difference but still not acceptable.
    Playing with the dynamic range (either on or off) seems to help too but still not enough..

    The audio geeks have probably noticed that I am limited for space by looking at my components; small speakers and slimline rcvr.

    Am I missing something here?

    cloudnine
    Free Member

    Buy a bigger centre speaker?

    Or just buy some proper speakers..

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I’d be checking that the source isn’t transcoding the audio into something stupid first off.

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    medlow
    Free Member

    @Couldnine, I thought the Kef’s would be well up to the job of playing relatively quiet volumes to my less than trained ears. Are they really that bad? I’ve had them years.

    @Cougar, how can I check that?.
    But to be honest, this happened with hardcopies too, so this eliminates any transcoding shenanigans I assume.

    It is not ‘wrong’ sounding, the centre channel is present and correct, just not obvious like it needs to be when playing at sensible volumes as the kids are in bed.

    rossburton
    Free Member

    You’ve definitely verified this happens with a proper surround source (like a bluray plugged directly into the receiver)?

    retro83
    Free Member

    Glad somebody else has the same problem, this drives me nuts.

    No combination of nightmode, DRC, etc solves it.

    In my googling, i found something called “dolby volume” (link) which appears to do what we want. Next to find a receiver which implements it.

    There is another one called Odyssey somethingorother and Yamaha have something called “Adaptive DRC” (link) which seems to do it

    Kamakazie
    Full Member

    Your speakers are just fine. Getting ‘bigger’ ones won’t solve an issue with a quiet centre channel.

    medlow
    Free Member

    You’ve definitely verified this happens with a proper surround source (like a bluray plugged directly into the receiver)?

    Yep, pretty certain this happened before I jumped into the world of streaming file formats.

    Glad somebody else has the same problem, this drives me nuts.

    Yep, a few of my mates also have mentioned this too.

    Your speakers are just fine. Getting ‘bigger’ ones won’t solve an issue with a quiet centre channel.

    I thought this too.

    cloudnine
    Free Member

    I was just going with the usual stw unhelpful reply by someone..

    Have you thought about a sub woofer.. these are good.. you’ll be able to feel the explosions!

    http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers/xxls400df.htm

    TheFlyingOx
    Full Member

    Mine does this depending on what Surround decoding setting I have it on. The are about 20 different settings so it took a bit of playing to sort out, but if it’s on Neural-X or DTS:Cinema then the centre channel is crystal clear regardless of what’s happening elsewhere.

    medlow
    Free Member

    Have you thought about a sub woofer.. these are good.. you’ll be able to feel the explosions!

    I the matching Kef sub to make it a 5.1 system. 🙂
    And yes the explosions are excellent. But that’s not what I’m wanting when the kids are asleep above the lounge.. 😥

    5lab
    Full Member

    before you buy anything, try a different source to check it’s not (somehow) your source (rather than the amp). put kodi on a laptop and play the file from there (over hdmi, with passthru) and see if it still happens.

    is the amp displaying DTS on it’s screen? If not, the box is doing some interpretation of the signal and maybe needs to be configured to understand that passthrough is on

    medlow
    Free Member

    Mine does this depending on what Surround decoding setting I have it on. The are about 20 different settings so it took a bit of playing to sort out, but if it’s on Neural-X or DTS:Cinema then the centre channel is crystal clear regardless of what’s happening elsewhere.

    I leave the DSP effects well alone, I do not like the artificial effects they give. Like ‘cathedral’ or ‘shower’. I just dont get the idea behind them.

    I leave it on ‘straight DTS’, no echo or artificial sound is added.
    I dont mean ‘pure direct’ though, that removes all processing and sounds naff.

    But as you mention it, I might try some of them again. I immediately discounted them years ago as I thought they were a real gimmick for the ‘it plays really loud so must be good’ folk. ?

    Let me try to find the Yamaha equivalent for DTS:Cinema (I think all AV makers call them different names)

    medlow
    Free Member

    is the amp displaying DTS on it’s screen? If not, the box is doing some interpretation of the signal and maybe needs to be configured to understand that passthrough is on

    Yes the amp says DTS. I have the source on HDMI passthrough and I see the little DTS light on and see it as a big name on the front panel.

    prawny
    Full Member

    Does the tv output have an effect? I’m not a home cinema buff so have no idea but some programmes/channels/films have terrible dialogue volume. Luckily, our terrible LG tv has a clear voice option, which has worked a treat.

    wobbliscott
    Free Member

    Definately nothing to do with the speakers. I’ve got Kef 5001’s too and hey are excellent and I don’t suffer this issue. It’s married upto an Onkyo receiver. My bet is on your network streamer. You can’t be sure what is going on to the base signal. You can’t beet a proper discreet hard format for consistency of quality of source signal. I get very variable results when streaming even from things like Netflicks and Amazon Prime there is variability between the picture and audio quality.

    medlow
    Free Member

    Does the tv output have an effect?

    No the TV is muted permanently as the audio is from the AV setup. 😀

    You can’t be sure what is going on to the base signal.

    I understand this point. But I am pretty certain this was a problem before I started streaming stuff.

    I’m going to do some testing this weekend with a BR player if possible.

    2unfit2ride
    Free Member

    I find that some films are just that way inclined, yet it does seem to be worse on DTS encoded films, maybe it’s the coding or maybe its the type of films that end up using DTS as the main stream, they seem to be quite action/explosion orientated.
    You could eliminate DTS as the issue by changing the option to DD or Dolby 2.0 in the DVD menu. Another option would be to disconnect the .1 (sub) as that will have a fairly high X-over point of about 120-150 htz which causes mayhem with deep male voices (Liam Neeson especially ).

    FWIW I have found changing from eggs to floor standers & turning the roll off point of the sub to 60 htz has helped a lot but sometimes it’s just the way the film was encoded that’s the problem.

    HTH.

    zokes
    Free Member

    Is there now way to change the output for each speaker? Most dialogue comes out of the centre, so I’d look at trying to increase that. Many receivers have such setting, but they’re usually pretty buried in the menus.

    Jakester
    Free Member

    I have a similar setup to the OP – Kef 2000 something (the Eggs and the incredible self-destructing subwoofer) and an older Yamaha RX surround receiver.

    I use a number of different sources (Freeview, Netflix, Amazon etc) and occasionally I get the same problem. Usually it’s down to the source material not being properly encoded for surround sound and the amp not forcing it through one of its surround models. In those circumstances I just switch it to enhanced stereo (which mimics a proper surround programme) and that does the job. Might be worth a look?

    My amp also has different decoders – Neologic, Dolby etc, and some stuff works better with one than another.

    medlow
    Free Member

    Is there now way to change the output for each speaker? Most dialogue comes out of the centre, so I’d look at trying to increase that. Many receivers have such setting, but they’re usually pretty buried in the menus.

    Yes, mine has a level for each and the middle channel is on max (+7db I think)

    Although thats a good point. I’m not sure if I turned the others down to -7db, they might still be on default 0.
    I’ll check tonight.

    In those circumstances I just switch it to enhanced stereo (which mimics a proper surround programme) and that does the job. Might be worth a look?

    Yes I have switched to straight stereo sometimes and its better but obviously lose the rear channels etc.

    There seems to be many people that experience the same thing, not down to a setup or equipment problem as its just the way it is for some films’ sound tracks.

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    Dump your system into ebay.

    Upgrade to a good quality audio Hifi system.

    Plug your TV into that.

    Listen to music. Watch movies with a good sound to them. Win/win.

    Jakester
    Free Member

    Mr Woppit – Member
    Dump your system into ebay.

    Upgrade to a good quality audio Hifi system.

    Plug your TV into that.

    Listen to music. Watch movies with a good sound to them. Win/win.

    Peak STW answer – ignore the question and then suggest something that’s going to cost a load of money and potentially have no bearing on the OP’s problem!

    MrWoppit
    Free Member

    Better than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

    High initial cost for long-term satisfaction.

    *other opinions are available*

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    I’m finding this a lot and been the same with various amps. It depends on the source though. It’s just a lot of stuff these days are heavy on the surround an bass but not the dialogue. That said I’ve got old stuff remastered on Blu Ray and they seem to be mixed that way also.

    Flick to Sky however and that’s more balanced in a lot of shows and way too loud from the centre on adverts, but drama and sci-fi stuff is still surround/bass/music heavy.

    I’ve resorted at times to turning on the dynamic volume on my amp. Might be a sin, but actually sounds really good and I can also have the overall volume much lower yet get some good deep bass effects, and can hear the dialogue.

    Of course it could be my hearing 😀

    simons_nicolai-uk
    Free Member

    I have never been able to listen to a movie without having to alter the volume to increase the dialog then turn it down when the action stars.

    Is it just movies or do you have the same problem with TV programmes as well?

    I’ve got the same receiver and haven’t had the issue.
    My guess is you’re just not liking the wide dynamic range that movies are mixed to but small speakers and a crossover that’s pushing a lot of audio to a small sub might not be helping. You say you’ve already tried boosting the centre channel volume and sub level though.

    From the manual it looks like there might be two places where you can adjust the dynamic range. P87 specifically mentions min/standard/Max settings for dynamic range for Bitstream Audio (ie DTS and Dolby Digital) which looks like a different setting the ‘adaptive DRC’ mentioned on page 75.

    If you’re streaming dodgy ripped files I’ve found the soundtracks often get trashed in the process.

    retro83
    Free Member

    Adaptive DRC is what I mentioned above, that sounds like it should do the job from what I’ve read.

    verticalclimber
    Free Member

    I have similar prob but mine corrects itself after 10 min or so

    Cougar
    Full Member

    If you’re streaming dodgy ripped files I’ve found the soundtracks often get trashed in the process.

    I was about to say the same thing. If you’re downloading 1080p copies then they’re probably 5.1, lower video formats tend to be stereo. I imagine.

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    How is the streamer connected? To the TV and then you have a return channel (ARC) HDMI to the amp?

    As I just discovered with my Samsung Smart TV, inputs to the TV and returned out in stereo, so the amp will do a Pro Logic surround decode but it’s no where near as good as discrete 5.1.

    Direct in to the amp, and 5.1. Oddly the Smart TV apps will send 5.1 down the ARC feed, but not stuff from other inputs to the TV.

    Still though, I find discrete 5.1 makes the centre quieter at times. I don’t have a sub, but I do have the low frequencies to the front speakers which are large enough to rumble. Not sure it affects centre channel though. With Pro Logic processing, probably, but discrete should just send the centre channel to the centre channel.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Still though, I find discrete 5.1 makes the centre quieter at times. I don’t have a sub

    5.0, then. (-:

    With Pro Logic processing

    Is it the 1990s again?

    colp
    Full Member

    Something to do with downmixing

    Link

    fifeandy
    Free Member

    This is quite ‘normal’ these days. The sound is designed to be loud in the cinema, and thats how it gets translated to bluray etc.
    Most things have a dynamic range reduction function somewhere to combat this, but its often still not enough for some peoples taste/living arrangements.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    Mr Woppit – Member
    Better than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

    High initial cost for long-term satisfaction.

    *other opinions are available*
    Like the one that points out that many people don’t have the disposable for your option. Like, I would hazard a guess, the OP.
    I have a similar system, had it for years, and occasionally I get this, it’s the sub really starting to work with the greater dynamics of movie soundtracks, so if it happens, I just back off the sub via its own volume control, leaving the amp alone.
    As the sub sits just behind where I’m usually sitting, it’s only a question of reaching round the back and turning the little knob a bit.

    RichPenny
    Free Member

    it’s only a question of reaching round the back and turning the little knob a bit.

    deadkenny
    Free Member

    Cougar – Moderator

    Still though, I find discrete 5.1 makes the centre quieter at times. I don’t have a sub

    5.0, then. (-:

    With Pro Logic processing

    Is it the 1990s again? [/quote]

    Well, it’s 5.1 with the .1 LFE sent to the front speakers. Not discrete but then the sub is non directional anyway. If the fronts go low enough it’s similar effect.

    Actually the amp is 7.1 but my set up is 7.1 – 2.1 😀

    And the Pro Logic (or PLII) as I say is what the amp will default to if given a 2.0 feed, which is what was happening with the return channel from the TV. Direct into amp, and get 5.1 etc.

    medlow
    Free Member

    Some excellent advice here. Let me digest it tmrw mornng and report back..!

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Pro Logic (or PLII) as I say is what the amp will default to if given a 2.0 feed,

    Ah, of course. As you were.

    ampthill
    Full Member

    I think that this is a common issue. I find it disappointing to see people suggesting that spending money is the answer. Yes better kit will reduce the problem but the bottom line is that film sound tracks have a huge dynamic range. The sound levels are meant to be standardised for all cinemas. But this standard produces sound levels that would be unaccepatble in many living rooms.

    We swapped from a hi-fi separates system to 5.1 system to help with the problem. It did and I can’t see how on the same budget a stereo system would ever be better. The easiest fix is turning up the centre channel, this was never an option with stereo. I have seen movies with a sound through a really high end stereo and it did sound really good but it doesn’t in any way tackle dynamic range

    To be honest we have only really dealt with the issue by accepting high volume levels in action sequences. Our kids are adults so we aren’t disturbing them, we don’t listen late and next doors kids are teenagers as well so its not like anyone is trying to sleep through it

    If the kids were younger I’d be looking at dynamic range changes in the processor. I really should get the manual out for our receiver

    I hope you find a solution

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Same in our house. I think it’s deliberate, in the way they’ve produced it. People want gut wrenching explosions and so on, so the action is dead loud when the dialogue is appropriate. Except we have kids and neighbours, and you don’t always want full on thrills when you’re just watching Netflix in the evening.

    Our sub has its own volume knob on the back, so we’ve got this turned down almost all the way, so it just contributes a slight rumble and body to the bottom end. Then we can turn the main volume up higher.

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