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  • hillsborough.. some unheard views aired
  • totalshell
    Full Member

    the evidence in recent days /weeks seems to present a different picture from that described by liverpool fans earlier in the inquests of police at fault and at fault now we here evidence of drunk fans, late commers without tickets charging the turnstiles orchestrated attempts to push over the turnstiles by ticketless fans

    all leaves a nasty taste of many things coming together to unwittingly cause a tragedy that no one could for see, but the 21st centuries obsession with finding someone/thing at fault may yet falter.

    Jamie
    Free Member

    Evidence from last few weeks? Links?

    LeeW
    Full Member

    I thought that ‘evidence’ was always in the public domain? I didn’t realise it was information just coming out?

    loddrik
    Free Member

    OH MY GOSH!!

    Drunk fans at a football match??! A cup semi final nonetheless. ONLY Liverpool fans could be so poorly behaved….

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    ONLY Liverpool fans could be so poorly behaved….

    Not really what anyone was saying though is it. More that the fans were not all well behaved and that the police were probably trying to deal with multiple issues at once.

    hora
    Free Member

    Football matches from that era were scary. I remember growing up in Hudds lots of vans, chasing fans, fighting, groups chasing each other etc etc. We all seem to forget how some sections of fans were nasty. The Police/powers cracked down didn’t they- bans from games, no open drinks on the streets etc etc.

    I can walk round Man Utd in the surrounding area on any game day before or after the match and feel safe.

    I think multiple incidents came together into one tragic outcome. Failure of command to tackle, overwhelmed etc. Sadly alot of people died for us to get our safer grounds and experience today.

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    There is a reason there was a big fence between the fans and the pitch…

    Years and years of behaviour that would shame a hyena was ‘accepted’ and such measures put in place to combat it.

    mikey74
    Free Member

    A few drunk fans does not excuse the ineptitude of the police on that day and the subsequent cover-up.

    scottchegg: that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard.

    hora
    Free Member

    mikey74 did you ever go to football matches in your youth? I did- I also went to speedway, packed out and I can’t remember trouble there by comparison. The Police FAILED that day. To cover up their failings they tried covering up their part. I wish they didn’t. Then we’d see the whole mess.

    Again the Police there failed, changed/doctored statements etc to cover their own arses. Not good.

    Even now in Huddersfield on certain match days you see a big Police presence around the train station and throughout the town. Whys that? I’d like to know Mikey.

    I remember in the 90’s in Southampton at the Saints ground- that was abit hairy at times- I remember dodging pint glasses smashing around us being hurled high and over.

    You can go to a Rugby League match- walk round the town first in your shirt, sit in a pub. You don’t need escorting to and from the ground either.

    Recently I was near Man U when Bayern were playing. It was hilarious- the German fans marched in order and banging drums etc. Stopped as one- chanted etc. Me and 4yr old horajunior were stood infront of them laughing and loving it. The fans grinned at us. It was great. Rollback the years – if I wasn’t at the match to watch I’d be nowhere near AND I most certainly wouldn’t wear a football shirt and be on my own.

    chrismac
    Full Member

    Mikey74 what are you objecting to? Football is the only sport where the fans had to be caged to stop them causing trouble. It wasn’t needed at other sports. Says a lot about the mentality of a substantial minority that this was needed

    rogerthecat
    Free Member

    Scary to say this but Hora has made a good point. I was dragged to Hillsborough as a kid by my uncle & my dad from the late 70s to the early 80s and it could be bloody scary at some games. Fights on the terraces, attacks on players, missiles from the crowds and lots of drunken fans.
    The Leppings Lane terrace was an accident waiting to happen but not unique. I recall a nasty incident on the pitch at Oldham sparking Wednesday fans to riot and wreck the ground. It was all a bit Clockwork Orange at that time, the football was just something that happened at the same time.

    mikey74
    Free Member

    I am objecting to the fact that scottchegg missed the whole point: this is not about the presence of fences at grounds (and yes, I did go to football matches in those days), it is about an extremely mismanaged situation that was tantamount to manslaughter.

    To blame it on the presence of fences is to suggest that the police were not culpable for their actions.

    hora
    Free Member

    The fences were required. It save the players and stop the fans from getting to other fans.

    Drac
    Full Member

    To blame it on the presence of fences is to suggest that the police were not culpable for their actions.

    He didn’t he mentioned there was a reason for the fences, not once did he say it was the cause.

    mikey74
    Free Member

    But that is irrelevant when assessing what caused the problem in the first place.

    No one is saying the fans were saints bit the whole situation was so poorly managed that the fence became a weapon, rather than a thing of safety.

    mikey74
    Free Member

    So what was the point of mentioning it drac?

    yossarian
    Free Member

    Football in the eighties was a very different experience. There are still pockets of trouble, mainly in the lower leagues now.

    I can accept that the fans that day behaved differently to how they would now. I can also accept that there were safety and organisational shortcomings on the day. I cannot accept the police cover up that followed.

    hora
    Free Member

    The fences went from becoming an asset/necessity to bring all the bad management and fans into one conclusion.

    anagallis_arvensis
    Full Member

    Theses “unheared” views are they notvthe reason why the sun isnt sold in merseyside?

    mikey74
    Free Member

    Not to mention the fact that journalists were pickpocketing injured fans on the pitch to gather information.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    As with so many other disasters, the cause was a combination of several different factors, including ground design, police training and planning, and poor behaviour by some people arriving after 2pm.

    I think it’s fair to say that many of the lessons around ground design and crowd control will have been learned, so for me the live issue is how SYP as an organisation conducted themselves in the aftermath.

    Very distressing for me to read some of the accounts of what people experienced and witnessed that day. I hope that the inquest findings can not only help the families of those who died or were seriously injured, but also those individual lower-ranking officers who almost certainly had no opportunity to influence the outcome, but may have spent the last few decades believing that they did.

    ninfan
    Free Member

    No one is saying the fans were saints bit the whole situation was so poorly managed that the fence became a weapon, rather than a thing of safety.

    True

    But the situation was mismanaged in the context of the police having a real fear and risk of widespread violence breaking out.

    decisions made at the time were made in that light.

    none of that excuses what happened afterwards of course.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Hillsborough is a funny one. No one is allowed to criticise the behaviour of some of the fans.

    The police made some mistakes and then tried to cover some of them up. Disgraceful.

    However, the behaviour of the late arriving Liverpool fans was also to blame for the disaster.

    Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.

    muggomagic
    Full Member

    Hillsborough is a funny one. No one is allowed to criticise the behaviour of some of the fans.

    I don’t think it’s that funny to be honest. Those fans were criticised for 23 years, I’ve no doubt some people behaved poorly that day, but what happened was a complete disgrace.

    However, the behaviour of the late arriving Liverpool fans was also to blame for the disaster.

    Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.

    No they weren’t to blame, this has been covered many times.

    The crowd began to build up outside the ground as early as 2:30, but there was a lack of operational turnstiles which meant the crowd built up outside the ground.

    Telegraph report

    RaveyDavey
    Free Member

    Because the Yorkshire constabularies have covered themselves in glory in the last few decades haven’t they?

    globalti
    Free Member

    People say that crowd behaviour is better nowadays and at the same time we are told (though we may not believe it) that violent crime is down. Some attribute this to the removal of lead from petrol 20 years ago.

    Possibly the same reason?

    dazh
    Full Member

    Nobody could actually blame the fans already in the ground but the large numbers of people pushing to get in, a lot without tickets, must take part of the blame.

    I can’t believe people still have this view after all the evidence that has come out and the facts established. You can’t blame the fans for being part of a crowd. What are they supposed to do? Shout ‘stop pushing at the back’ and attempt to stand still? The blame as has been shown lies squarely with those who were managing the crowd, ie. the police. They showed a complete disregard for public safety and made some incredibly poor and negligent decisions which resulted in lots of people dying, and then tried to cover it up and blame the victims. I think this has been established beyond any reasonable doubt.

    binners
    Full Member

    Globalti – the end of football violence was something to do with chemistry, but not lead in petrol.

    It was the influx of industrial quantities of really high grade MDMA from Holland. Which was embraced with open arms by the very same people who would previously have been knocking lumps out of each other on a Saturday afternoon. Your appetite for that is somewhat diminished by the fact that you’re still off your napper, completely loved up, having pushed on through from an all nighter at a warehouse in Blackburn, and what you really want is a hug.

    Dove anyone?

    scuttler
    Full Member

    incident on the pitch at Oldham sparking Wednesday fans to riot and wreck the ground.

    Boundary Park was a wreck before Wednesday showed up.

    edlong
    Free Member

    People say that crowd behaviour is better nowadays and at the same time we are told (though we may not believe it) that violent crime is down.

    And yet we’re also told that the police need water cannons, not sure why that is then.

    This is a complete red herring – there may have been a load of drunk, ticketless, violent people there, but they weren’t the ones in charge of crowd safety.

    As loads of you have pointed out, drunken, violent, ticketless “supporters” were a feature of football in the 80s so those who were tasked with crowd safety should have planned for them anyway.

    And I don’t think it was drunken, ticketless Liverpudlians who altered police statements afterwards and perjured themselves at the original inquest.

    surfer
    Free Member

    I think this has been established beyond any reasonable doubt

    But you are assuming that people listen to logic and think rationally and objectively. There are still a large number of people who will not accept that drunken scousers didnt play at least a significant part in the tragedy and that the lies printed in the Sun were at least to some extent true.

    dazh
    Full Member

    There are still a large number of people who will not accept that drunken scousers didnt play at least a significant part in the tragedy and that the lies printed in the Sun were at least to some extent true.

    Sadly this is true. I’ve heard otherwise rational and intelligent people at my workplace voice the same rubbish about ‘drunken scousers without tickets’ etc. The fact that most of them are Man U fans is completely unrelated I’m sure. I guess the lesson is that football tribalism in some cases can have the strange effect of turning normal rational people into blathering idiots.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    As with so many other disasters, the cause was a combination of several different factors, including ground design, police training and planning, and poor behaviour by some people arriving after 2pm.

    I think it’s fair to say that many of the lessons around ground design and crowd control will have been learned, so for me the live issue is how SYP as an organisation conducted themselves in the aftermath.

    Pretty much this

    project
    Free Member

    Thankfully i have absolutely no intrest in football or watching lads run round a field hugging each other.

    But i do have an intrest in senior officers ordering lower grades to alter reports, reports going missing and the huge cost of legasl fees for retired police officers,then there are the deliberate lies told by reporters and editors of national newspapers.

    And all the above without the suffering and greif the familes and freinds have sufered since that tragic day,when they expected truth to prevail and obviously it didnt.

    nealglover
    Free Member

    Thankfully i have absolutely no intrest in football or watching lads run round a field hugging each other.

    What an odd thing to say.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    The one thing that everyone seems to agree on is that the victims were not to blame. As others have said, Hillsborough was the culmination of a whole host of issues in the sport, stadiums, Policing and society. Many of the errors in all those areas have been dealt with in the wake of Hillsborough and Bradford, which thankfully have not been repeated in this country since.

    Most people know this and accept this. The victims have already been exonerated. The Police cover up has been exposed and needs to be pursued as a criminal act. I’m not entirely clear what the real point of this hugely expensive inquest is other than a need for lawyers to make fees trying to find someone to sue, which I believe is a terrible disservice to the victims and the community of Liverpool.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    Globalti – the end of football violence was something to do with chemistry, but not lead in petrol.

    It was the influx of industrial quantities of really high grade MDMA from Holland. Which was embraced with open arms by the very same people who would previously have been knocking lumps out of each other on a Saturday afternoon. Your appetite for that is somewhat diminished by the fact that you’re still off your napper, completely loved up, having pushed on through from an all nighter at a warehouse in Blackburn, and what you really want is a hug.

    Dove anyone?

    THIS
    Football changed because the fans outlook on life changed due to being loved up.
    Prices then changed who were the fans and the dark days of violence never returned

    paulosoxo
    Free Member

    Has anyone commenting on this thread ever actually stood on the terraces at Hillsborough? The place was a shit hole, I was there as a kid to watch Sunderland, and stood on the kop end, this was after the Hillsborough disaster, I spent the game stood in front of a crush barrier, with my dad behind me, and the time trying to get out of the ground with both feet off the floor, jammed in a surging crowd,

    The police cover up of the day has in my opinion prevented the real reasons for what happened being fully investigated. There were multiple failings in all areas on that day. From fans who shouldn’t have been there turning up, to the FA’s and SWFC’s greed in choosing a poor and lazily policed stadium based on how many people you could fit in the place.

    Roker Park has never had fences up, as far as I’m aware, and I don’t think St James’ did either, there was no need for them. The working class football supporters were treat like cattle back in the day.

    Hillsborough didn’t change football, changing the type of people who attended football changed football.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Roker Park has never had fences up, as far as I’m aware, and I don’t think St James’ did either, there was no need for them. The working class football supporters were treat like cattle back in the day

    St James definitely had fences up.

    They were took down the day after Hillsborough.

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