I always thought it was more about the music than the sound. If that wasn't true, live music would have died out years ago.

"just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong"

You, sir, are clearly in the wrong forum!

Be off with you forthwith.

I never bother to read sfb's post anymore anyway, as they are invariably dull and repetitive,

I rarely notice who's making a post – I pay attention to the ideas expressed (except that I'm ruder to people I know). Anyone can have a good idea sometimes.

"Anyone can have a good idea sometimes."

Although Hora does rather stretch 'sometimes' to breaking point.

SFB – You're arguments for spending more money on kit stacks up about as well as spending money on Hi-fi kit.

The difference in cameras is blatant and can be measured. The hifi twaddle takes a 'golden ear' to detect and does not register on any other known instrument.

Can a blind person measure them?

You could say that diminishing returns kick in beyond a pin-hole camera.

All in each others opinions of course

no more pictures per second is measurable/observable …clean power source enhancing the experience is a somewhat less well defined measure and open to (as this thread clearly shows) interpretation and differnce of opinion.

Hi-fi threads certainly rack up the posts, don't they?

For what it's worth, IMO & all that…..

– putting a post on here about this kind of thing is pretty much asking for the responses that have been received – whether you want it or not. Even with the disclaimer in the OP (something about not responding if you don't believe it will make a difference).
– I don't get why people are so bothered about telling hi-fi peeps that this stuff is nonsense/snake oil/waste of money etc. If they wanna spend it, then let them. Can't say I've ever 'listened' to a clean mains supply, but if you reckon it will make a difference then good luck to you. People on here are quick enough to recommend bike equipment/upgrades that would probably have no discernible difference in terms of 'enjoying a ride'.
– I used to be a little bit into hi-fi & buy What Hi-Fi magazine. I seem to remember they quite often recommended a dedicated mains loop if you were connecting up some serious hi-fi. But, normally they'd just recommend that you kept the kit off the same loop as your fridge/washing machine etc.

The most irritating thing about this and the other (directional cable) thread is that some posters seem to simply reiterate arguments that were answered previously without any attempt at developing that particular aspect.

One can only assume that 1: they didn't read it (unlikely, as I have answered the reiterated argument a second time on more than one occasion, only to see the rejoinder used yet again) or 2: they ignore the inconvenient logic and continue the reiteration simply to bait.

Childish, tiresome and patronising. Although I can't express my full emotion in this regard, otherwise I'll be banned for being too rude, apparently.

My conclusion is to simply avoid any further discussions inhabited for a large part, by those who simply wish to repeatedly go "nyaah-nya-na-nyaah-nyaah" (figuratively) as if we were all still in the playground at infant's school.

Out.

Is that what Jesus would want though?

what like you did in the Christain debate ?

Hoisted up by one's own petard ?
or biblical one just for you

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

perhaps some truth in it after all 😉 😆

'There are companies that will try to persuade you that there is something wrong with the electrical supply coming into your house or studio. In particular, they will try to tell you that there are all kinds of nasty radio frequency interference (RFI) signals marching down the mains cable, bent on making everything that you record sound 'muddy' or whatever hype word they go for.

99 times out of one hundred, there is absolutly nothing the matter with the power supply and adding some Mickey Mouse box does nothing for you.

The problem (for them) is you already have several devices that are perfect at getting rid of RFI. They are called power supply units and everything has got one!

All equipment runs on direct current. The audio signal may be alternating current (AC) but all electronic equipment uses direct current (DC) internally. The great exception is the Tonwheel assembly of the original Hammond Organ that uses the AC frequency to drive an asynchronous motor invented by Larry Hammond and first used in AC-driven clocks. But that is the only exception that you will find in a modern recording studio.

The incoming AC supply (roughly 230V in Europe and 120V in the US) is turned into the desired DC voltage and current by a device called a power supply unit (PSU). Usually the incoming voltage is reduced by a transformer and then a series of rectifiers and condensers smooth out the voltage to provide the exact value required. In a so-called universal power supply, the reduction is performed by a series of thyristors, but the capacitors are still there.

These transformers and capacitors act as massive low-pass filters. Radio frequencies in the 100kHz and above stand no chance! Also, all quality equipment had little filters known as 'taps' at the beginning and end of all longer signal paths to prevent any RFI bleeding in from outside.

Various forums have seen a spate of UPS – power conditioner – balanced power – and other completely unnecessary power 'cleaner' threads lately.

Let's get this straight, once and for all time –

1. An off-line UPS takes over when the power fails or drops below a certain value. If you are just afraid of the occasional black-out, this will do.

2. An on-line UPS replaces the in-coming power supply with a sine wave at the desired voltage at all times. If you are having REAL problems with your supply (varies wildly and may cut out) then this is the only solution that actually works.

3. Any UPS has to have a capacity of at least 50% more than the equipment to be supplied, if it is not to create more problems than it solves.

4. Balanced power must, by law, be installed by an electrician and be protected by trips for both sides of the balance in both the US and the UK. In the UK, ANY kind of fixed electrical installation must be performed by an electrician. A bodged installation of balanced power is a great way to kill yourself or just destroy your equipment.

5. Most power problems come from poor grounding. If you are in any kind of doubt, get a multimeter and check that the resistance between neutral and ground is absolutely zero at all outlets. In Europe, the power supply can vary greatly (too much leeway is permitted to the power companies here, IMO) between about 210 and 250 volts. If it is outside those values, complain in writing, after checking with a second multimeter.

Check your grounding and supply, BEFORE you waste money on any kind of boxes! The magic box that somehow solves gounding (aka earthing) problems has not been invented and never will be.'

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-acoustic-music-location-recording/167649-power-thoughts-clean-power-conditioners.html

Junkyard – Member

what like you did in the Christain debate ?

Hoisted up by one's own petard ?
or biblical one just for you

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again

perhaps some truth in it after all

No. Yawn…

Grumm – don't be bringing that new-fangled science nonsense into this.

As Stumpy says, if someone wants to spent £x on their hifi and it brings them pleasure and they feel that pleasure is worth £x, that's absolutely fine. It's a placebo effect. They probably know themselves that it's a placebo effect but it doesn't matter. They enjoy their listening more and that's all that matters.

If, on the other hand, they attempt to claim as fact that 'conditioned' mains improves the performance of the equipment, this is nonsense and they shouldn't get too upset when people tell them it's nonsense.

ah Mr woppit you responded like the charming gent you present yourself to be when your own arguments are used against you.
Made me smile some more thanks 8)

Grumm nice try but (like the religous)they wont let inconvenient things like facts get in the way of their genuine belief.

Snoooore…

OMG.

WTF have I done.

You forgot it was STW

SfB's comment about not having the attention span for silences and preferring women capering about is most revealing. Pretty much says all you need to know about how much interest he has in quality music. I have several albums which have long silences as an integral part of the music, which I'm sure would drive SfB even more nuts. 😈

So does John Cage sound better with the amp on or off? 🙂

I have several albums which have long silences as an integral part of the music

Not so much silence integral to the music but the silences between the tracks on the Cowboy Junkies 'Trinity Session' are pretty impressive. It was recorded in a large church (presumably 'Trinity') with the band sat around a single stereo microphone. The space between the tracks is eerie – you can 'hear' the scale of the building in the silence.

To go right back to the beginning – would the best way to have as clean a power source as possible for reasonable outlay not be to run a dedicated spur from the consumer unit?

initially this sounded vaguely plausible, but in circuit terms, all the mains devices are wired in parallel, and using the parasitic distributed reactance of the mains wiring to the socket as a filter is far more expensive than using a discrete filter to the same effect.

Pretty much says all you need to know about how much interest he has in quality music.

correct! In fact I reject the concept of "quality music" – its function is visceral and emotional, appealing to the inner beast to which quality is meaningless!

SFB – how can you fail to understand that the comparisson between a £100 camera and a £2000 one is EXACTLY the same as to a piece of hi-fi equipment as all of them have been manufactured!!!! It's the same with anything you buy, be it a watch car blah blah blah!!! I take it photography is you other hobby as you were very quick to express an opinion on it, I apologize if I'm wrong.
The same is with bikes surely, we can have fun on a Halfrauds bike but a £2000 bike WILL work better and perform better even if there aren't any ways to measure only those of a tester or individual themselves.
The "fun" factor along with sonic or visual interpretations are open to subjective feelings so please try and understand that and is applicable not only to hi-fi but many many other hobbies – cycling included.
I don't consider myself an expert in any field and I have an open mind to most things. I try give honest advice regarding any hobby I've done, be it cycling hi-fi photography or shooting but it's always just an opinion. I do appreciate good engineering, being an engineer myself and so when something is "engineered" I can see and feel it, like a good watch for instance. They are almost "alive" as you would put it.
Hi-fi, along with a lot of hobbies as too many merchants trying to make you part with your hard earned cash by spouting bullshit but please don't think hi-fi is on it's own – if you read bike mags etc and read bike manufacturers bull you will know exactly what I mean. I make my judgement on trying stuff, finding out whether I like them or not, be it bikes or hi-fi. I also have restraints – money – so will buy to suit my own needs and I don't care what anyone else spends either. Remember – it's each to his own and like lots of things it's mostly subjective too. I do have an expensive hi-fi – I bought it after listening and using my ears and that's the only thing that matters – it's what I like. Just like my bikes, cars, music, films, watches etc etc.

grumm You on about magnetic fields?
there is truth in that.

regarding Amplifiers
I use a cyrus 3 with seperate power supply, to be honest not noticed
any differance.
If your getting spiking from switching power on, then use a
computertype extension lead.
Been a while ive looked into amps but i do remember NAD done a cheap
envlope amplifier.

SFB – how can you fail to understand that the comparisson between a £100 camera and a £2000 one is EXACTLY the same as to a piece of hi-fi equipment as all of them have been manufactured!!!!

I don't think it's a valid comparison. Hifi is a mature technology (one might almost think senescent). The recording medium changes from time to time, and a 2nd channel was added what, 50 years ago ? Without cutting corners it's easy to reproduce those signals accurately for a couple of hundred pounds (not counting the speakers) and any further expense must be on cosmetics or pointless refinement. Speakers are of course the weakest point, as they actually generate audible distortion (1..3%). In fact I'm surprised no one has created digital speakers with an optical feedback loop to linearise the mechanics – surely that wouldn't be hard ? Then with a DSP one could tune in whatever kind of sound & distortion one liked, LP, valve etc and all the problems with cables and components would vanish!

In contrast digital photography is still developing rapidly, only recently coming near to challenging the fidelity of (admittedly compromised) 35mm, and I'm sure a lot more needs to be done to get cameras to mimic better the flexibility of our eyes – and that development costs, and the improvements are obvious and measurable.

Ive known people to rewire there house to get a clean line of power to there hifi and I have spent some time working in a house were the guy spent over $350.000AU building a system into his house and it all just sounded rather good but its got to be only worth it to the beholder as to me and my humble but good hifi worth very much a fraction sounds just as good. As Higs says its up to you if you spend the money if you think its worth it but if its a good Amp it should be very well shielded in the first place!