Value For Money?

Oh, right, well…

Del – Member

and i bet it gives you a real VFM feeling when a stereo comes in lots of boxes…

Not particularly no, but as soon as I had assembled my final setup, I appreciated how much one has to spend to achieve that level of excellence. It's a heavy financial commitment, but I am glad I made it.

Not only surprised at hearing of Crimson amps but a Logic DM101 turntable!
That takes me back about 30 years.

Any (former) Townshend Rock owners about?

Not particularly no, but as soon as I had assembled my final setup, I appreciated how much one has to spend to achieve that level of excellence. It's a heavy financial commitment, but I am glad I made it.

You'd think with spending all that money you'd have learned that putting your speakers in the corner of a room is going to exaggerate the bass and make it boomy.

Maybe you could have saved some of that financial commitment by placing the speakers properly. 😉

The speakers are not "in the corner of the room", but standing out into the room by 18" from the back and 20" from the side, within the parameters recommended by ProAc in the accompanying brochure.

No "boom", either.

Oh, I've just noticed the 😉 – irony, I presume…

It's still not really about the actual music tho, is it? 😉

No? What's it about, then?

It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

…and that's ok.

Really, it's ok, and nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Be nice if people could be honest, and say they have all that kit because they want it, not because it sounds any better.

It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible, but let's be generous and assume that you missed it.

The reason to want the kit is that it sounds better, that seems obvious but apparently not to you.

http://www.rollingstone.com/ne…ath_of_high_fidelity

Passive mains devices are BS. Active regeneration works but you pay for it.

"Because?"

To regulate the waveform. A number of scientific measuring devices use regenerators for this reason. Electrical supply is only required to be at an average 110/240V over a 24H period and can deviate by quite large amounts.

Oooh sorry,I seem to have touched a nerve!

It's like my bike; I did my best racing on a 21lb gas pipe aluminium bike that didn't really fit that well. Now I potter about on a 16lb carbon wonder bike because I can. I have it because I want it, because I can, not because it makes the riding any better.

Denial, not just a river in Egypt… 😉

Al, before you fitter money away fixing your mains, i'd check they are noisy, no point putting the horse before the cart….

and then if you find then are polluted you have two options, filtration, or regeneration. If your budget is tight only one of those is a real option and if that's the case then tootle over the hifiwigwam and pm 'earl of sodbury' he has a little company called witchwood audionics and makes bespoke filters for less than the cost of a reach-round from Russ Andrews.

Hold on… let me get this right… people actually pay good money for mains conditioning their hi-fi, which will have perfectly good power supplies in anyway?

Excellent… my PhD might not be wasted after all…

:o)

Now to just make up some marketing bollo… ooops, spiel, about how good matrix converters are for hi-fi!

>Hold on… let me get this right.

You obviously missed the interconnect thread – *this* was the more sensible one (just) 😉

I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible, but let's be generous and assume that you missed it.

No it isn't, otherwise you'd be using studio monitors – not components which 'warm' (i.e. distort) the sound! 🙂

Passive mains filters do work. A capacitative inductive (LC) network in the mains lead connection will remove much, but not all, mains carried interference. I have built my own and fitted them inside equipment and it used to be possible to buy a "potted" version but a quick web search led me here http://www.bulgin.co.uk/PDFs/CatNo82/Filters2005.pdf and if you look you'll see that there are three capacitors, one across the mains live and neutral and one from each mains line to earth and there is an inductoron each line to kill high frequencies carried on the mains.

I used one on an amplifier I built when it proved to be very sensitive to the fridge switching on and off.

Unfortunately, however, some equipment is very sensitive to radio frequencies and this will not stop that. Every time you switch anything off and cause a spark you are broadcasting a bunch of RF energies and it may not be mains borne noise you are getting. Getting rid of that can be a real problem, as hi-fi designers build things in nice clean environments.

If your hi-fi kit has any motors in it (Cassette player for instance) the motor itself can generate noise and I've had to fit capacitors to motors before now to reduce the crackle they cause.

Sorry for the lecture – I was back in University mode, from when I took my electronics degree.

It's still not really about the actual music tho, is it

Of course it's about music. That's why concert halls are designed, to great cost and effort, to get the best acoustics possible. I would much rather hear a concert at the Bridgewater hall, than down the road at the horrible student venue, The Academy. You could hear exactly the same concert at those two venues, but what you are hearing and therefore the music, would be totally different.
Music is about enjoyment and sparking emotions in you, which it does by sound, so getting it to sound as good as you can is totally about the music.
I am sure the original poster didn't expect sensible answers posting on here though.

Just crank tha bass up, innit

More Belting Tips

such gems as: "After freezing two batteries, insert them into the remote control and listen to some music for a short time. Then replace the (treated) batteries with the untreated batteries and see if you can listen to the same music with the same pleasure as before !! "

at this point I realised he never meant this to be taken seriously and it was all an elaborate wind up :o)

Music is about enjoyment and sparking emotions in you, which it does by sound, so getting it to sound as good as you can is totally about the music.

I would say for exactly the same reasons the sound itself hardly matters :o)

I've already said that the point of the technology is to deliver the music as true to the original sound source as possible

I bet my £250 powered studio monitors in a properly acoustically treated room sound more true to the original sound source than thousands of pounds worth of amps and speakers in a room that's probably full of horrible modes and standing waves.

Can I ask again, how does mains noise manifest itelf in a transistor based set up? Can I literally hear it, or is somebody here saying it affects the function of the equipment?

Why do dullards & trolls like SBF have to ruin threads like this? can't you leave room for rational debate without bringing idiots like PWB into it along with your "eloquence". Imo these guys and you are very alike – just different slants on aspberger's syndrome.

OK there's plenty of Nimrods out there selling snake oil – please don't associate them with me. I understand some electronics, EM stuff and have studies acoustics and MSc level and Physics at uni. I have designed loudspeakers and sold hi fi for a living – I guess that leaves me completely unqualified cos I don't have an engineering degree?

crikey – Member
It's really about the gear.

If you look deep into your heart, and I don't expect you to admit it publically, it's really about the things on the shelves. It's about the position of the speakers, about the cables, about the equipment.

…and that's ok.

Really, it's ok, and nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about.

Be nice if people could be honest, and say they have all that kit because they want it, not because it sounds any better.

Bullsh*t. Please don't make assumptions about me. PLENTY of people on here have bling bikes and no doubr bling hifi – my bikes are pretty plain and are built to offer fun & value – because I enjoy the riding, while I can also appreciate the design & engineering. Same for my hifi – it's a means to enjoy the music. If you can't appreciate that spending money on well chosen hi fi enhances your enjoyment of music then youshouldn't be on this thread.

Can someone close it please? Thanks for any helpful comments btw 😀

Why do dullards & trolls like SBF have to ruin threads like this?

is it ruined? I thought it was hilarious! I can't get enough of hifi twaddle – setting aside the amount of money wasted it really just so very funny :o) I see no difference between it and the frequent crank length debates where 5mm of extra length totally changes the ride…

I'm worried for these guys…..what music would we suggest to chill them out?

cynic-al… I don't think anyone is questioning that spending money on well chosen hi-fi equipment won't make a difference to how it sounds, more that people are questioning whether such things as a mains filters, or in the other thread different cables, really do make the differences that are ascribed to them…

Is this another one of those things which is not measurable, but can still be heard?

And while mains filters are very real things, which do filter the mains, the question remains as to whether this makes any difference at all to a hi-fi plugged into a domestic mains socket.

Unless of course the equipment designers are being really sneaky and putting really bad power supplies in their kit, that are affected by the normal levels of distortion/noise on a mains feed, so that people then have to go out and buy 'mains cleaners'.

Oh and bugger… I find myself agreeing with SFB again… and I don't like doing that! 😉

My main criticisms of "hifi" are:
a) it's been amply demonstrated that people like some even order harmonic distortion (ie valve sound), so attempting "fidelity" is misplaced
b) as soon as you start listening to the sound rather than the music you are missing the point of its creation, which is the mysterious way music taps directly into our emotions and memories – by analogy, the first few minutes of a film with subtitles are very annoying, but if the film is any good you stop noticing you're reading the dialogue, and the font and colour of the text become irrelevant

And exactly similarly, I find the obsession with bicycle parts fatuous when it's riding that is fun. All I want from a bike is for it to work, and effectively disappear (like the subtitles)

Unless of course the equipment designers are being really sneaky and putting really bad power supplies in their kit, that are affected by the normal levels of distortion/noise on a mains feed, so that people then have to go out and buy 'mains cleaners'.

Thing is most folk aren't going to buy an amp with a really good PSU – the likes of DNM etc are considered too esoteric, but their "better" amps change only the PSU IIRC.

SFB – yes you are hilarious, in your own mind, at least.

b) as soon as you start listening to the sound rather than the music you are missing the point of its creation, which is the mysterious way music taps directly into our emotions and memories – by analogy, the first few minutes of a film with subtitles are very annoying, but if the film is any good you stop noticing you're reading the dialogue, and the font and colour of the text become irrelevant

BULLSH*T. A good system (like those I espouse) will enhance enjoyment of the music, giving it life, making silences darker, making individual instruments more focussed and clear etc etc (it's not at all about "clean" sounds like AVI or ATC). Not all of that is about fidelity at all, and I think you are using this thread to make your (dull, oft repeated) points (yet again) even though it does not actually oppose mine. You're just looking for internet-forum pubilicity.

Good luck with that, I'm sure it's great. *awaits "witty quip"*

You're just looking for internet-forum pubilicity.

publicity for what ? Perhaps it has escaped your notice that internet forums are about interaction and entertainment (and some information), and that's what we're doing. We don't have to agree about anything.

Personally I lack the attention span for silences, and like most of my music served up with young women bouncing around scantily clad.

Surely the power supply in a component should be at the same quality as the rest of the component, otherwise it's just been badly designed…

So I guess if a hi-fi needs mains filtering then it's an admission that it is badly designed? 😉

Designing a power supply for something like this, that needs a clean mains feed is simply bad power supply design, all the filtering it needs should be built into its input filters, and if the outputs need to be that precisely regulated, then that should be taken care of as well by the design…

The only reason for not having good power supplies is due to companies wanting to keep their costs down, but for kit that is already costing hundreds/thousands it's a bit crap if they can't put in the proper filtering on cost grounds…

cynic-al – you are falling into the trap.

Over the years, 90's mostly, I have bought hi-fi gear that brought improvements that I heard in a shop or at home that was better than what I had. It has got to the stage that I would need to spend £1k+ to get any discernable improvement and I do not wish to pay that. I am 'stuck' with a LP12 / ittok / Dynavector mc / Naim 70/140 / Credo's and Avondale tweaked Arcam cd player. I also put in a specific spur with round pin plugs.

So I know where you are coming with from on hi-fi and you do not need to convince me or say Mr Woppit. SFB (amongst others) is just baiting you so do as I do and page down when you see a response from him and if you must read it do not respond!

Just go and ride your expensive bike round in a big circle and relax;-)

Classic SFB – if he doesn't understand something or believe in it its is wrong. In SFB world only SFB ideas are true. ( I know this is a bit pot kettle and black) Simon – try to remember that you are not the sole arbiter of what is right and often you are clearly wrong. I try to do this

Clean mains for Hi Fi is a bit at the geeky end IMO and people at the Geeky end of HiFi tend to listen to the equipment not the music. However to tar all with the same brush again is simply wrong. Some hifi geeks do know what they are talking about – not all have million pound systems then play mp3s thru them

However it is simply amazing what differences getting stuff right makes even at the bottom end of real Hi Fi. Correct speaker placement for example makes a huge difference as does decent ( but not thousands of pounds worth) cabling

Many things in HiFi you get into diminishing returns for your money very quickly -to the point where incremental gains are very poor value for money.

To go right back to the beginning – would the best way to have as clean a power source as possible for reasonable outlay not be to run a dedicated spur from the consumer unit?

SFB – Why should I spend £5k on a camera as opposed to £100?

The image that it captures and the emotions it stirs will be the same, its the eye of the photographer that counts.

just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Personally I lack the attention span for silences

"Personally I'd talk to a turd if I thought it would listen" more like 😡

I never bother to read sfb's post anymore anyway, as they are invariably dull and repetitive, frequently poorly researched, ill informed and boundlessly pedantic. That may just by my opinion though 🙂

In SFB world only SFB ideas are true.

this isn't about right or wrong but what people are prepared to believe

SFB (amongst others) is just baiting you

I bait everyone all the time, but I also in include my own homespun philosophical musings.

frequently poorly researched

make that always :o)

SFB – Why should I spend £5k on a camera as opposed to £100?

The image that it captures and the emotions it stirs will be the same, its the eye of the photographer that counts.

With the more expensive camera kit you can feel and measure the improvement, mainly in terms of handling: more frames per second, quicker focussing, better buffering, and, unfortunately, more weight 🙁 In use, the better camera gets the shot I wanted more often. Of course, it's completely wrong to say "its the eye of the photographer that counts" because it's the eye of the person looking at the photo that matters, and what they respond to. For all you know the photographer might have been seeing something completely different for different reasons. I don't say a cheap camera can't take fantastic shots, only that they make it more difficult & unlikely. I don't think the number of pixels matters much.

Correct speaker placement for example makes a huge difference

Clearly where you place your speakers makes a difference no one is arguing about that are they? To claim someone does not understand because they ridicule you for spending thoudands on propesterous devices (be they anti aging cremes,directional cables, an inductoron (WTF),)that have little measurable benefit does leave you open to gentle ribbing /incredulity at your gullibiilty IMHO.

SFB – You're arguments for spending more money on kit stacks up about as well as spending money on Hi-fi kit.

Ergo – whatever someone feels passionate about they can find the means to justify. I am slightly inclined to be passionate about both photography and Hi-fi, but neither the OP or your arguments are compelling enough to make me go out and spend lots of money on Hi-fi or Cameras.