Viewing 24 posts - 81 through 104 (of 104 total)
  • HGV + trailer & cyclist dead- accident?criminal? acquitted anyway
  • epicsteve
    Free Member

    What I don’t get (was thinking about this just now while out riding), is How can it NOT be dangerous driving? What more evidence that the driver has done something dangerous do you need? – there’s a body in the morgue.

    What if the cyclist had his head down trying to go as fast as possible then pulled out to pass the parked car without really looking and hit the side of the lorry? Likely no, possible – definitely.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    What I don’t get (was thinking about this just now while out riding), is How can it NOT be dangerous driving? What more evidence that the driver has done something dangerous do you need? – there’s a body in the morgue.

    Are you serious?

    D0NK
    Full Member

    there’s a body in the morgue.

    there’s a cyclist in a morgue, cyclists are silly and jump red lights and are obviously a bit daft in the head as they aren’t driving a car, they’re a danger to themselves really. Whereas this defendant bloke is a fine upstanding member of society who pays fuel vat and road tax.

    maybe?

    could be any strange combination of factors but being an outgroup definitely sucks donkey balls.

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    scaredypants
    Full Member

    I have read nearly all that shit

    The problem as I see it is twofold:
    1) The highway code is vague and bit shit in parts
    2) Even if it was more definitive, the highway code is not established in law as a list of behaviours that would define “a competent and careful driver”. It bloody well should be.

    amedias
    Free Member

    Are you seriously suggesting it is unsafe to overtake a cyclist on a clear, straight section of B road because I cannot give him a full car width? Seriously?

    Yep, that’s what I’m saying, as aracer so kindly obliged with his examples while I was away doing things.

    Just because that is not the norm doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be.

    The only bit that is a bit subjective and could be addresses better is with relation to speed and conditions, overtaking in traffic at < 20mph is a completely different ball game to overtaking at 50-60mph on an NSL road on a windy day, and size of vehicle comes into play too once you think about the air buffeting and suction generated by larger vehicles and so often forgotten by drivers, when you overtake/get overtaken by another car you don’t feel the effect, but on a bike, a car at 40mph even 1m away can feel very close and have a noticeable effect.

    for example:

    In town, at low speeds, on good roads in a car, 1-1.5m might be quite safe.

    On a potholed country lane, on a windy in a car doing 40-60mph you should give a lot more room, and scale that up to a lorry or bus and even more room required.

    however, on certain roads, depending on the cyclist’s position in the road, this would mean any overtaking would not be possible at all.

    Maybe I’m reading too much into this comment but it almost sounds as though you think your journey is more important than theirs and that they shouldn’t be there? 😉

    In the rare cases where this would actually happen, and without a suitable passing place occurring in a sensible amount of time then the Cyclist should (and in my experience would) pull over and allow traffic to pass, just like Tractors/milk floats/horses etc.

    Most of the time it is sheer impatience, people not willing to sit and wait a few seconds* for a gap, or passing place that causes dangerous overtaking.

    *It really is only a few seconds, the amount of times I’ve had people revving or honking behind me and performing silly overtakes when then length of time they’ve actually been held up is in the order of 10 – 30 seconds is truly astounding, even more so in city centre when you get the typical revy, high speed overtake to save 3 seconds reaching the next queue of traffic less than a hundred yards ahead, it makes my mind boggle.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    I can honestly say I have never experienced a vehicle pass me and give me the recommended distance, even on dual carrigeways when the other lane is empty.

    My own experience on the bit of road where the accident occurred is different – I’ve never had an issue with other vehicles passing me too close. That’s probably because while it’s a dual carriageway there are several sections that usually have cars parked, so most motor vehicles stick to the outside lane rather than pulling in and out of the inside lane.

    There were a few references earlier in the thread were folks seemed to think that section or road is a single carriageway but it’s not – there are two full lanes in both directions, but without a central barrier. It’s entirely possible for a vehicle (including an HGV) to pass a cyclist without getting anywhere near them. Lots of drivers don’t anticipate what drivers (or cyclists) in the inside lane are going to do when overtaking parked cars though. Not anticipating that someone might have to pull into your lane to pass a parked car I’d personally class as dangerous (or at least careless) although I’ve no idea if the courts would agree. I suspect they’d place all the blame on the driver than pulled out, rather than on the driver they pulled out into.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Are there lane markings? From the picture it looks like it is a single lane road, although wide enough to allow parking, I couldn’t see any lane markings.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Yes, there are lane markings (though quite worn in several places)

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    Yes there are lane markings and it’s not difficult to know if you’re on the right lane or not.

    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    Epicsteve – it’s not a dual carriageway – it’s a single carriageway with two lanes in each direction.

    It’s entirely possible for a vehicle (including an HGV) to pass a cyclist without getting anywhere near them.

    I don’t agree – especially where there is a traffic island in the middle of the road as there was where the collision occurred.

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    epicsteve
    Free Member

    Epicsteve – it’s not a dual carriageway – it’s a single carriageway with two lanes in each direction.

    That’s why I described it, as I felt there was a good chance that some pedant was going to tell me it wasn’t technically a dual carriageway – despite having 2 full lanes in both direction!

    I don’t agree – especially where there is a traffic island in the middle of the road as there was where the collision occurred.

    Even at that point there is masses of room for an HGV to safely pass a cyclist. Maybe not two HGV’s passing, and I’ve been know to hesitate until after the island when passing a bus in the car.

    I’m not sure where you’re located so don’t know if you’re familiar with that road, but I’ve driven and cycled it on pretty much a daily basis for many, many years.

    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    Masses of room for an HGV to safely pass a cyclist given that there was a parked car as well?

    D0NK
    Full Member

    That’s why I described it, as I felt there was a good chance that some pedant was going to tell me it wasn’t technically a dual carriageway – despite having 2 full lanes in both directio

    dual carriage way has a divider between the two directions of traffic, doesn’t matter how many lanes on each side. It’s not really pedantry as they have different rules.

    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    Used to ride that road a fair bit when I was at Heriot-Watt.

    I think the 40mph limit is not appropriate given all the parked cars on it. If it had double yellows then maybe it would be ok.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    Masses of room for an HGV to safely pass a cyclist given that there was a parked car as well?

    Personally I’d have backed off to give the cyclist room to pull out if I saw him approaching a parked car as I’d be expecting him to pull out. Not sure what the law would say if the cyclist pulled out to pass the car and contact was then made with the vehicle in the outside lane. I suspect legally the bulk of the blame would be put on the cyclist – but I’ve had put a substantial portion of the blame on the driver for not anticipating.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    I think the 40mph limit is not appropriate given all the parked cars on it. If it had double yellows then maybe it would be ok.

    I’d tend to agree with that – and also given the proximity to parks and houses along a fair bit of it.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    dual carriage way has a divider between the two directions of traffic, doesn’t matter how many lanes on each side. It’s not really pedantry as they have different rules.

    From the previous comments it looked like folks hadn’t realised there were two full lanes in both directions though – which is why I pointed it out despite opening myself up to road-geek pedantry!

    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    I’d agree Steve – looking ahead and deciding to overtake a cyclist probably doing a fair speed (so low relative speed meaning the overtake for an HGV would take a long time to complete) with parked cars and a traffic island coming up would seem risky to say the least!

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Back at my PC…

    From the Highway Code

    249
    All vehicles MUST display parking lights when parked on a road or a lay-by on a road with a speed limit greater than 30 mph (48 km/h).
    Law RVLR reg 24

    As the accident occurred around 8am in January. Is it possible that the driver and/or the cyclist did not see the parked car up ahead?

    NewRetroTom
    Full Member

    That’s a very interesting and little known rule scotroutes!

    Wonder if they did take it into consideration in this case.

    epicsteve
    Free Member

    That’s a very interesting and little known rule scotroutes!

    Wonder if they did take it into consideration in this case.

    Definitely worth a thought, although that road is reasonably well lit so there would be little excuse not to see a parked car.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Can you imagine phoning the police to complain every day! I wonder how long it would take for the road to be reclassified to 30mph.

    MSP
    Full Member

    Yes, there are lane markings (though quite worn in several places)

    OK that does change the perspective, and I can understand how the court came to the “not proven” verdict.

    lemonysam
    Free Member

    That’s a very interesting and little known rule scotroutes!

    Incidentally, a chap I used to live with was sued under this rule after a cyclist went into the back of his van on the A65 just outside Otley. He was bang to rights according to the law but it did feel a bit silly given that it’s a dead straight stretch of road with perfectly good visibility and it happened in daylight – albeit early in the morning.

Viewing 24 posts - 81 through 104 (of 104 total)

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