Dredging your unreliable memory for sensationalist cases that turn out to be completely irrelevant wont really help this debate…but given where we are, why let that stop you?

I was just teasing but given you sanctimonious stance I’ll bite. He was convicted of offences and allowed to carry on his duties and then used his role to kill people. Obviously he was a rotten apple but some people (not me i was teasing) might say as he is a doctor we can use the police bashing logic – no such thing a s rotten apple, all are tainted and protected by their employers to extrapulate that all doctors are the same. My memories fine by the way.

The number of police in the UK is approximately 130000. Compared to the NHS at 1.3 million or any other large UK based organisation the number of “bad apples” would appear disproportionate.

Its the lengths and depths that the police appear to go to in order to protect themselves and their colleagues that makes the public feel we are being let down.

I recognise that the justice system is not the police and it is there where convictions are meeted out but take the example on here of the guy that recovered his bike. His case was closed without him being notified therefore he felt let down.

Now as I said above convictions are dealt with in the courts and we can’t expect every scrote to be locked up. I also believe that government targets on police to have a clear up rate of x% do not help where I believe small convictions keep the “conviction rate” artificially high when if the police could concentrate on solving crime that would make a difference in the public eye would be considerably more beneficial overall.

I guess this is simply another part of broken Britain. An ineffective and apparently troubled police force, a health service that cant cope with the requirements of its customers. A central government full of stupid ideas.

some people (not me i was teasing) might say as he is a doctor we can use the police bashing logic

Ok then. Great tease that…so if I were to find out what you did for a living(just as a tease) then dredge the internet for an example of someone in your profession in trouble with the law – because lets face it I’d really have to want to find this out, as very few jobs/professions are covered as sensationally by our wonderful free-press than policing.

Then if I couldn’t find another example in your field – I could either make one up, or choose an example completely unrelated as well as completely irrelevant to your job and use that as an argument to prove that the original wrongdoing I mentioned was emblematic of systematic wrongdoing in your profession.

I get it now. Carry on…

I’ve dealt with Derbyshire and Cheshire Constabularies as part of my job. From an organisational/ management perspective I’d say they are both good/ very good. Their hearts are in the right place, they see the over-riding priorities, they both spend their (our) cash pretty carefully I’d say.

If Derbyshire want to try to tap into Cameroon’s big society then, why not? If there are volunteers out there who are willing to help then more power to them.

I’d hope that one of the benefits of the cutbacks will be a breaking down of the ‘them and us’ division between the public sector/ public servants and the wider public. Derbyshire Police appealing to our better natures is an example of this I think.

If Derbyshire want to try to tap into Cameroon’s big society then, why not? If there are volunteers out there who are willing to help then more power to them.

I doubt they want to, but they are being forced to try ‘innovative approaches’ because they are not being funded sufficiently. IME they will spend at least as much time and money organising/managing the volunteers as they would have done employing people though.

I’d hope that one of the benefits of the cutbacks will be a breaking down of the ‘them and us’ division between the public sector/ public servants and the wider public

I doubt if even the shiny eyed zealot who dreamt this pile of nonsense believes that will be the end result of this type of policy…Stuart from The Thick of IT? nah he probably would believe in it…

very few jobs/professions are covered as sensationally by our wonderful free-press than policing.

Very few jobs/professions use force and the power of the state against civilians quite so extensively, are so hierarchical and monopolists, and very few are quite so difficult to monitor and bring to justice when that force and power is abused. It’s no wonder they attract attention.

It’s also the fact that when the people who are employed to maintain law and order are found to be doing the exact opposite it’s more of a story than if a guy who works in a shop commits a crime. I don’t think that’s particularly unfair TBH.

Back to the OP’s actual topic….bring em round i’ll wash em all.

Admittedly it’ll be with piss and might take a few weeks to do them all but I reckon thats about in line with the service we get back.

No neither do I – was just commenting that it’s easier to argue that problems are systematic/endemic if it’s easier to find examples via a quick google search….

Exactly that. The big surprise is that the force can’t see that for themselves.

Can I underline that I agree about full and close scrutiny of police standards – but do we really think they will function better as a modern police force with staff cuts, morale trashed and ill-considered and desperate schemes expecting them to perform like some sort of parish primary school parents council? The very folk who support this will be the first to complain when things go wrong

What next – tray bake sales to raised funds for uniforms?

Nobody expects them to act like “primary school parents council” but we also do not expect them to act like incompetent thugs.

When they make mistakes it would be reasonable to expect them to be transparent and honest rather than trying to bury the facts. We appreciate that errors are made and that is human nature but the correction of those mistakes should also be transparent.

Corruption and over zealous policing and taking years to sack those involved is the issue that gets my goat. In addition those individuals that are sacked eventually are not generally brought to justice but simply retired or fired. Its the lengths that the police go to to protect their own, then it becomes public knowledge and you see the cover ups.

It must be difficult for some officers when they see things going on and feel powerless to stop it as I am sure many many of them do want to make a difference. I can’t imagine how frustrating that may be. The cuts affect us all without enough feet on the street crime will rise, the pay schemes for police are not too bad but I can’t comment on the other benefits.

What would make a difference for the police. Make the job easier, better, more palatable?

Isn’t this about the third time this issue has come up?

If these are Policing related/support tasks that need doing (however menial) then that must form at least part of the requirement for a payed position(s) within that force.

As for getting unpaid volunteers in to do “Paperwork” am I the only one who think that might be one of the scariest ideas ever? we’re talking about Admin support for the police here, documents which might form part of the basis for court cases, and rather than pay someone to do it correctly, they want an ex-copper (who’s probably less interested in going back to just do the dull part of a job they no longer need to, or one of Daves little do-gooders to do it? kind of leaves a pretty key part of the legal process open to error or worse still malicious intent…

“Ok then. Great tease that…so if I were to find out what you did for a living(just as a tease) then dredge the internet for an example of someone in your profession in trouble with the law – because lets face it I’d really have to want to find this out, as very few jobs/professions are covered as sensationally by our wonderful free-press than policing.

Then if I couldn’t find another example in your field – I could either make one up, or choose an example completely unrelated as well as completely irrelevant to your job and use that as an argument to prove that the original wrongdoing I mentioned was emblematic of systematic wrongdoing in your profession.

I get it now. Carry on”

Well done on getting my teasing point at last about certain posts on this thread, the fact that the bad actions of some police officers mean that the rest of us, maybe in completely different forces, work areas are tarred with the same brush. Yesterday for a living I was bronze commander for four premises searches, developing an operational plan executing it with support with uniformed MPS resources backing up the strike and then whilst managing a series of complicated searches, instructed a barrister out on the searches, dealt with various parties affected by the crime and had a giggle with the ladies in the hairdressers next to the plot.

the bad actions of some police officers mean that the rest of us, maybe in completely different forces, work areas are tarred with the same brush

What is the Police Federation’s position on the newspaper vendor death and its context?

Isn’t washing cars the responsibility of new trainees and close to retirees?

“He slipped on some turtlewax, goddammit he was only 1 day away from retirement”

Wouldn’t hiring/contracting a local carwash be cheaper than supervising the civvies? Especially when you take into account COSHH/PPE/DataProtection requirements…

Well, okay, then, kilo – the question seems to have thrown you (if you read it, tbf). The answer is this: the Police Federation doesn’t seem to have a position on Simon Harwood striking Ian Tomlinson, on whether his training, vetting and behaviour was appropriate, and doesn’t seem to have a position on whether his trial or disciplinary hearing was appropriately carried out. At least, I don’t see anything on its website and my google-fu can’t see any press releases or comments – perhaps I am missing it. One of the biggest policing-related stories of the last two years, and nothing. Shouldn’t good cops that know the job of policing best be the ones who are the most outspoken when it’s been done badly?

Meanwhile, the Police Federation was able to spare a few people to hold meetings and conduct off the record briefings over the highly important question of…whether or not some toff called some cops “plebs”. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4587070/Police-demand-PM-sacks-Mitchell.html

If you really want to know why police officers are so prone to be “tarred with the same brush” by the public, it’s this: because the idea that everything can be brushed under the carpet as a “few bad apples” any more is laughable, and because the people that claim to represent police officers are apparently quick to stick up for cops over a petulant insult, but slow to stick up for the public when there’s an officer, a system and an operation that have clearly gone terribly wrong with awful results.

Whilst I think you have a point that complaint could be used about any interest group

I dont read much about CTC slagging off cyclists for example but they do comment about drivers.
All interest groups do this.

On this issue there are three points
1. If anyone other than he had done this they would have been arrested
2. My understanding is that he is calling the coppers liars and their notes/reports are evidence in court and this is a serious issue that they were unhappy about. I assume if he was correct the cioppers would be disciplined/sacked.
3. They took the opportunity to score a political hit on a govt they probably dont like much.