Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 96 total)
  • Help to work
  • iolo
    Free Member
    wwaswas
    Full Member

    I’ve seen people get less than 900 hours community service for killing a cyclist.

    It’s the Tories creating traps for people.

    “Can’t sign on every day because you can’t afford a bus?” Benefits stopped.

    “Miss your appt. time by 5 minutes ‘cos the bus was late?” benefits stopped.

    “Ill and don’t turn up for involuntary voluntary work?” benefits stopped.

    It’s about getting the numbers down, not getting people into work.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    So how would you tackle the problems of the long term unemployed? If you have been out of work for 2 years you probably need either help or a kick up the arse. The help is on offer and the stick is there for those that choose not to participate.
    Getting people some experience and into the habit/practice of turning up for something, doing something and achieving something isn’ a bad thing. If people can come out of it with more skills or being more employable then it should be a good thing.

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    mulv1976
    Free Member

    The government has said the changes will help to put an end to the “one-way street in benefits”.

    Meanwhile…

    Formula 1 boss Bernie Ecclestone has avoided a potential £1.2bn tax bill as a result of a secret deal with HMRC.

    Ok – the ecclestone thing was 2008 but his highlights how **** the system is.

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    mikewsmith – you’re bang on, but you missed the “if done compassionately”

    iolo
    Free Member

    I believe getting into a routine is a good thing to do.
    Volunteering can hardly be a bad thing.
    Time keeping is hardly rocket science.
    From what I understand it’s either daily visits or volunteering or retraining.
    Retraining will be a big part.
    Which bit do you disagree with?

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    I’m confused about doing up to 30 hours of unpaid work. If there is work to be done that’s a job and whoever is doing it should be getting paid.

    Similarly I’m deeply uncomfortable about internships and zero hour contracts.

    My inclination is to agree with wwaswas. It’s about massaging the numbers not providing “real” employment.

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    I’d typed a long reply and then lost it.

    In summary;

    1) the way that Disability Living Allowance was managed was a number crunching exercise to reduce numbers claiming, not help claimants

    2) Pilots for this scheme have shown success no more than those staying on the previous system.

    3) There’s just more opportunity to stop benefits for ‘non-compliance’ with this system than the old one.

    I’m all for helping people to get jobs.

    I don’t believe that there are enough jobs for all those unemployed to get one.

    I don’t think that forcing people to do community service is going to do anything more than mean that the work they’re doing will no longer go to someone who was previously paid to do it.

    mikewsmith
    Free Member

    I’m confused about doing up to 30 hours of unpaid work. If there is work to be done that’s a job and whoever is doing it should be getting paid.

    The person is being paid, their benefit payment is given to them.

    I don’t think that forcing people to do community service is going to do anything more than mean that the work they’re doing will no longer go to someone who was previously paid to do it.

    If there is work but no funds then why not get people who are receiving job seekers etc. to do it. If they were to take short term work then they would drop out of the system of receiving help and simply mask the trend of long term unemployed by getting lots of people to do short term work then chuck them back into the unemployed queue. Also you can use it to get more people through a volunteer programme than just employing 1 person.

    Of course

    binners
    Full Member

    The voluntary work is a bit of a red herring really. Mrs Binners works in the third sector and while ‘get the unemployed to help out charities’ sounds like a great idea. Daves Grand Vision for the Big Society, and all that, The reality is somewhat different

    What happens is that the job centre send surly, possibly drunk, illiterate and unemployable person down to help out, under threat of getting his benefits cut. Someone in the already stretched voluntary organisation then has to try and get them to do something useful. They’re usually long-term unemployed for a very good reason. They aren’t much use at anything. More often that not, they spend their time trying to stop them stealing the laptops.

    Do you think charities want this kind of ‘help’? Really? Of course they don’t. They just get them dumped on them.

    So… its all headline grabbing that serves to further demonise the unemployed, and provide more ammunition for stopping benefits. Simple as that. I can see training helping out. As a lot of them are unemployable because, for whatever reason, they had a crap education. So try and tackle the real reasons. Not look for daft ineffectual (and in some cases counter-productive gimmicks, purely to keep the Daily Mail happy

    Incidentally…. the people who are genuinely helpful in the charity sector are asylum seekers, who do it willingly as they’re (somewhat ridiculously IMHO) legally prevented from working. When most of the time they are highly educated, highly motivated and generally pretty useful, and want to do something constructive with their time

    Oh the ….

    darrenspink
    Free Member

    Well said binners

    ohnohesback
    Free Member

    It’s nothing new…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsarbeitsdienst

    In addition to working full time the unfortunate jobseekers will have to continue to prove that they are actively seeking work in their ‘spare’ time.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    The person is being paid, their benefit payment is given to them.

    Well if they are doing work, they shouldn’t be on benefit, they should be on a wage.

    trail_rat
    Free Member

    Did we do millibands headline grab last week on the vow to ban zero hour contracts ?

    First good thing to come out his pie hole ….. But how to implement it and how long before they came up with an alternative/ just made everyone on a zero hour redundant….

    footflaps
    Full Member

    It’s hardly volunteering is you are under threat of being homeless and unable to feed yourself if you don’t turn up.

    Hopefully all charities will refuse to have anything to do with this.

    ohnohesback
    Free Member

    Not forgetting that it probably breaches the Slavery and Servitude Act 2010, the Human Rights Act, and the precedent that coerced labour violates the ECHR.

    olddog
    Full Member

    I didn’t see any indication of numbers – is this a big problem or not – or any analysis of why people have been out of work for 2 years as proportion of unemployed, working age population etc

    Will be expensive if lots of people under this regime – increase in public spending for more DWP civil servants – or is there a wild assumption that it will pay for itself in getting people back into work.

    Will it work – any evidence or analysis of success of similar schemes

    Unemployment rate is about 7% – with big geographical variances – so may not be work locally or competition may be high. Also agree with the point that, if there is work to be done shouldn’t we just be employing people to do it?

    Ultimately, if we have a benefit system there will be some negative consequences with both people getting caught in a trap of long term unemployment making them less employable in a constrained job market or taking the p@@s because the don’t want to work.

    In my view, it’s fair enough to take (positive) measures to address both these – but not at the expense of the point of why the welfare system exists. I suspect that this has less to do with getting long term back to work and more to do with demonising the unemployed. Because, by bearing down on benefits and claimants it makes people prepared to work for less money (and linked to liberalisation of labour laws)in less secure environments and less likely to risk any action that potentially risks unemployment (eg action for better conditions/pay). All gravy if you own or invest in business, not so hot if you are an employee.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    There’s probably loads of flaws in my thoughts but how about…..
    Dole plus. You help fill pot holes or paint hospitals and you get more than the dole money.
    If you don’t want to do it fine, just reward people who want to do a little bit more.
    Sitting at home watching daytime telly is enough to sap the spirit out of anyone.

    olddog
    Full Member

    … and the people whose job it is to fill potholes or paint hospitals lose jobs and sign on. If this work needs doing – pay people to do it.

    zippykona
    Full Member

    Old dog, there may be people to do those jobs but our roads are still full of holes and hospitals in disrepair.
    Seems like they could do with some extra hands.

    fin25
    Free Member

    There seems to be this idea that unemployment is the fault of the unemployed. The simple fact is there are not enough jobs to go around. I will admit that there is a core (probably less than 10%) of unemployed people who would probably refuse to work in any circumstances, but many of these are arguably a product of an education system way too focused on pushing everyone into academia.
    It is too easy an option to blame the unemployed for unemployment. Most unemployed people are the victims of the “market forces” that our economy is based on. The Tories will never dream of policies which mitigate against the negative impacts of market forces on the economy, that would be rampant Stalinism apparently…
    Over the past few years, very few jobs have been created, most people getting a new job were probably getting it because another person lost their job.

    kimbers
    Full Member

    spent 6 months unemployed last year

    and things really are a joke

    the pressure to get you off the books is enormous, the staff were desperate to sanction you, so that that the government could reduse the claimant count
    ultimately you are left even more demoralised and theres no effort to help you get an actual career and reducing the opportunity for stable long term work

    met some incredibly determined people at courses and some who were obviously trying to play the system

    this scheme will help neither

    those that want to get on will give up a few weeks of free labour while those that dont will just cause hassle

    olddog
    Full Member

    zippykona … but is you use cheap unemployed labour to do these jobs why pay full price for decorators to do the work at all? Who is to say how much work is to be done at full price by properly employed workers and how much by cheaper unemployed?

    Basically you would end up with a strong downward pressure on wages in those trades that the scheme operated for.

    And fundamentally, how would you feel if you lost your job because your employer could get someone to do the work for free?

    yourguitarhero
    Free Member

    Compelled volunteering won’t help. http://keepvolunteeringvoluntary.net/

    molgrips
    Free Member

    Why don’t the government actually pay them properly to do a real job instead? Or is that too much like big state?

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    Sooner people realise that there is a section of society that are beyond help the better. let them have their dole money.

    The dole is not an attractive proposition to anyone but wasters, most people do want to work if they can.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Signing on daily is just daft, and counterproductive to boot- job centres are already overstretched, they don’t need 14 times more visits from the long-term unemployed! How about, sign on once a fortnight and make the sign-on appointment more useful rather than the boxticking and benefit-sanctioning exercise it is now.

    The whole “volunteering” thing has been tried before, and lo and behold people ended up “volunteering” to do work that normally would have been a paid role. Volunteering gets right on my tits because when I was out of work, I did some and was told by my job centre person that because I was “unavailable for work” while volunteering, my benefits could be docked! Insane. But when you’re volunteering for someone they want you to, that’s all good, even though that’ll inevitably make it harder to focus on finding real work.

    Then there’s the Cait Reilly scenario- someone is already volunteering, but gets ordered to stop doing that, in order to go and do some less useful voluneering for some company that’s on the official Approved Cheap Labour List.

    And o’course it’ll be a matter of minutes before they stop someone’s benefits because they didn’t attend an appointment they’d never been told about, or they couldn’t afford to get to, or that was 500 miles away, or they were too ill to attend, or were at a job interview (*) or similiar. And there’ll be an appeals process but even if it works, in the meantime you get to live on air for a month.

    (* I got this one- my job centre told me I should reschedule a job interview because it was more important that I sign on)
    Let’s blow them up. Only rational response.

    binners
    Full Member

    Thats communism Molls! Have you not seen the tractor production figures comrade?

    As far as employment goes,haven’t about 50% of the ‘jobs’ created, been people registered as self-employed? So not unemployed. Apparently Job Centre Staff are putting heavy pressure on the unemployed to do this. Then they’re off the books, and instead of claiming jobseekers, they get their money in working tax credits instead. But they’re still unemployed. As they haven’t actually got a job

    very dodgy goings on indeed

    Put this together with the millions who are ‘underemployed’ – working in insecure part-time and zero hours contracts, and the unemployment figures, and any pretence at a real economic recovery are all pretty laughable. Is it really a ‘job’ when there are no guaranteed hours, no holiday or sick pay, no employers NI contributions? Seriously?

    This latest ruse is just more of the same. Get people off the books, by any means possible, to cover up for the fact that there isn’t an economic recovery at all. Just some people selling houses. And if the plebs and proles are driven to food banks, and desperation, well… who ****ing cares? As long as they don’t show up in any statistics eh?

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Pretty sure this will just push people to more crime. If you can’t afford to eat, you’re better off in Jail than starving on the street.

    LHS
    Free Member

    If the system ain’t broke why fix it….oh right

    Don’t understand the link between Bernie Ecclestone and people too lazy to work? You saying we should tax the rich more to pay for the lazy people?

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    LHS – Member
    If the system ain’t broke why fix it….oh right

    Don’t understand the link between Bernie Ecclestone and people too lazy to work? You saying we should tax the rich more to pay for the lazy people?I’m sayin benefit scroungers cost us very little. and considering the implications if we create an underclass with no access to money at all, i think we would see a corresponding rise in crime the more people are put out on the street.

    Put it this way, if I have no job, and no benefits, how else am I going to live except unlawfully?

    footflaps
    Full Member

    Who said they were Lazy?

    iolo
    Free Member

    Again I’m being stupid (nothing new).
    What’s difficult in
    1. Going to the jobcenter
    2. Volunteering. What’s wrong with making food for pensioners?
    3. Training. This can only be a good thing.
    Where does it mention stopping money as long as they do as requested? Maybe some people (not all) expect something for nothing and this could be a kick up their arse.

    LHS
    Free Member

    600,000 jobs available from what I heard on Radio 4 this morning.

    binners
    Full Member

    Who said they were Lazy?

    Generally I find its people too lazy, or stupid, to form their own opinion, based on anything like actual evidence. Or look into anything more deeply than the misinformation spoon-fed to them by the mouthpiece of the vested interests they represent. Read it in a Mail editorial? Well its probably true then. They’re all bone idle, sponging off ‘hard-worng families’

    It suits the government to demonise the unemployed (and the sick and disabled) to justify stopping their benefits, while they dismantle the welfare state.

    As someone who was unemployed after my business folded a few years ago, I’d say you should try it yourself before you label the unemployed as all lazy, feckless and work shy. Its complete cobblers. You can apply for job after job after job, and not even receive a single reply! Its utterly demoralising. And then, on top of this general feeling of hopelessness, you have idiots like LHS spouting their right-wing crap that its because ‘they’re lazy’. Because thats what they read somewhere, without questioning it! It boils my piss!!!

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    What’s wrong with making food for pensioners

    1) who pays for the actual food?

    2) who pays for the additional infrastructure required to allow 200,000 extra people to turn food into pensioner meals?

    3) which pensioners aren’t currently having food made for them currently?

    LHS
    Free Member

    No one said everyone is lazy. There are a lot of genuine reasons why people can’t work.

    There are also a lot of genuine work-shy dodgers who really need to be weeded out.

    binners
    Full Member

    No one said everyone is lazy.

    Yes you did. Are you getting confused? Is this all a bit complicated?

    Anyway…. You are Iain Duncan Smith and I claim my food parcel 😀

    seosamh77
    Free Member

    LHS – Member
    There are also a lot of genuine work-shy dodgers who really need to be weeded out.

    Weeded out to what though? stop their benefits, and they still can’t/won’t work, how do you see that playing out?

    iolo
    Free Member

    Doesn’t have to be food. Pensioners have to eat so I’m sure they would supply food.
    Helping in animal rescue centers.
    Driving disabled children in a minibus.
    Help in charity shop.
    Collect rubbish.
    Clean statues.
    Whatever you can think of.
    Be as pedantic as you want wwaswas.
    Helping people or having pride in your environment is a good thing.

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