Wonder where I stand on this…

Work for a large US company that was bought by a larger US company recently.

They have asked me to sign a new contract with a lower basic salary, less holiday, lower car allowance etc. to “align” with their existing employees. They are approaching other colleagues around Europe with similar demands, hinting if you don’t sign they will fire you.

As I understanding it this is breaking U.K. TUPE law and I guess if I do refuse and they fire me I’d have a good case for unfair dismissal, however I’d also not have a job.

Anyone know how much I’d get if I do go to a tribunal?

Thanks!

I think they have to give 90 days notice for a change in your contractual conditions. If it’s a whole new contract then I’ve no idea. This is because IANAL. Do you have union representation?

No Union unfortunately.

Similar happened to a friend of mine. He just had to suck it up. Polish up the old CV, maybe?

Constructive dismissal?

I think I can just turn around and say no thanks I’ll stick with my old contract that you have a legal obligation to honour. They can’t pay me less unless I sign their new contract. Suspect they would just fire me though.

TUPE or Transfers of Undertakings Directive 2001 should cover this. If there is no union, go and have a word with an employment lawyer. The law should be quite rigid here.

Polish up the cv.

They can’t force you to sign it. They can find a way to make your role redundant, make you reapply for a new reorganised roles , manage you out etc

If it where me I’d look for another job and refuse to sign it (on the basis you can affird to be made redundant etc and have a thick skin for the ensuing bullsh.t)

They can’t pay me less unless I sign their new contract. Suspect they would just fire me though.

Bullsh.t on can’t pay you – thats just a lie. They can’t fire you unless you FU. They can make yiu redundant but an employment lawyer would have a field day with that unless they had a very good reason and could prove they weren’t doing that just as you refused to accept lower wages

The new employer siunds like the sort no one would want to work for

They sound like a bunch of **** and my suspicion would be that your assessment above is right, though they may be clever enough to avoid a tribunal
IMO decide whether you want to work for them and if no, refuse to sign and start jobhunting because they’ll get you in the end

IANAL/HR person/corporate mangement tosser

If it is a TUPE transfer:

Changing terms and conditions:
Following a transfer, employers often find they have employees with
different terms and conditions working alongside each other and wish to change/harmonise terms and conditions. However, TUPE protects against change/harmonisation for an indefinite period if the sole or principal reason for the change is the transfer. Any such changes will be void.

From ACAS – http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/j/p/Handling-TUPE-Transfers-The-Acas-Guide.pdf

I think you have to be formally TUPE’d.

Sounds like they are trying to screw you over – either tell them to ram it if you think you can get a new job or suck it up…

Sounds like you can object and they fire you, and go through unfair dismissal process. They may even have factored an allowance for some cases of this but still works out cheaper in the long run if most people just accept it.

That and possible constructive dismissal. They want some people to quit. Again you can take them to court over that and again they may just see it as acceptable to pay it out for a few who do.

Their business model is buying up companies – 1 or 2 a year then f*cking people over. Most of the people from previous acquisitions are bitter and resentful. I guess it would be good to know how much I’d get if I went to tribunal.

I guess it would be good to know how much I’d get if I went to tribunal.

Might be worth getting in early with a compromise agreement. I assume they will have to make you redundant rather than just firing you?

Yup certainly sounds so. Expect them to be well practiced at being total b’stards. Going to tribuneral costs 10’s of thousands and they will be well aware of that.

Might be worth getting in early with a compromise agreement. I assume they will have to make you redundant rather than just firing you?

They don’t have to offer anything more that stautory redundancy which is peanuts

mudmuncher – Member
Their business model is buying up companies – 1 or 2 a year then f*cking people over. Most of the people from previous acquisitions are bitter and resentful. I guess it would be good to know how much I’d get if I went to tribunal.

Sounds like a company I used to work for. They ‘merged’ with one American outfit… no changes. Said American outfit then got acquired by another global American outfit (with the same acquisition strategy as yours). Que similar situation to the yours No TUPE as the original entity I worked for in the UK still existed and I worked for them. They were ‘encouraged’ by the ultimate American owner.

I walked, and into much better career and company.

Bear in mind that going to a tribunal will also cost you thousands now.

Fees

I thought TUPE was automatic in a takeover scenario-why would any new employer volunteer it?

One for a chat to ACAS about in the first instance I think. They’re free and know what they’re on about.

They don’t have to offer anything more that stautory redundancy which is peanuts

Not if they are constructively dismissing you by reducing your salary and benefits.

hinting if you don’t sign they will fire you.

Have you got anything from management alluding to this in writing?

Bear in mind that going to a tribunal will also cost you thousands now.

@ji it always costs tens of thousands. You need a solicitor and a barrister, the tribuneral fees are a tiny part of the bill.

Not if they are constructively dismissing you by reducing your salary and benefits.

No I get that, they will force you to spend £20k going to the tribunal first though. These guys will be well practiced at this.

I work for a large us company who like to be dicks like this.

In my experience when they take over a company they have an adjustment period where they honour the contracts of the take over. Following this period normally around 90% of the people in that company have been replaced, transferred or left on their own…

My recommendation is to push for a better deal while you look for new work and if you hear the words “market forces” you are properly stuffed…

Where are you based and what industry?

OP have you been there more than 2 years ?

What @corni says … get your skates on OP I suspect all your colleagues will be looking for new jobs too

Que similar situation to the yours No TUPE as the original entity I worked for in the UK still existed and I worked for them. They were ‘encouraged’ by the ultimate American owner.

Yes, I think they are doing this trick – keeping the existing legal entity of my old company alive to do all the dirty work. They’ll liquidate once they’ve cleaned everything up.

I think they do want to keep me, they just don’t want to pay what I’m on. A number of people have already caved in and signed. I get the feeling they have to make examples of people who stand up to them as the insubordination might spread to other employees.

Have been there a long time.

Suspect they would offer me some cash to go and keep quiet. I’d like to expose them though. Can’t really give too many more details incase the bozos in HR stumble across this googling tupe law.

just tell them youll continue to open and close the doors, nomatter what the governmnet/public/shareholders management say

Does the large company begin with the letter A by any chance? Sounds just like my ex-employer!

Does the large company begin with the letter A by any chance? Sounds just like my ex-employer!

No but I think a lot of these US companies behave in this way unfortunately.

Have you got anything from management alluding to this in writing?

No, they have been quite careful, however have made it clear it will end badly for me if I don’t accept

If you’re a civil servant the Govt legislated to enable them to reduce your redundancy package by 65% even whilst you’re awaiting the formal offer. Leading by example…

They’re currently paying you what they believe you’re worth (otherwise, why overpay someone?). So if other people doing the same job to the same level of ability are on less money, they’re evidently underpaid. N’est-ce pas?

I suspect they will say “no need to be tupied, it’s a merger.” Or some such bollocks.
Bastids. I work for USA mega corp who did just that & keep poking at terms and conditions.
90 day notice is all they need to “restructure” and “realign”.
Workers rights- laughable .
I’ve made it clear to my superiors that I would prefer to follow European Union law 😉 and take the 90 days if it comes to it.At least make it difficult for them.
Best of luck.

mcgeordie – Member

Does the large company begin with the letter A by any chance? Sounds just like my ex-employer!

Was the next letter D

Op, because your company has been taken over so essentially it’s restructuring or reengineering or whatever bull there are nowadays so with that you are made redundant if you do not sign. They can easily do that with the excuse that they are a “new company” and that they have now decided to change the direction of their business etc …

Another argument they will produce is ALL employees affect not you alone so it is a fair exercise.

You have two choices:

1. Hang-on with reduce pay then start searching for another job.

2. Refuse to sign then get made redundant. They will not fire you but you role will be redundant because they will change the job specs …

The going to industrial tribunal … waste of time, stress and affecting health.

If I were you I would sign it then start searching for another job.

First question, do you want to say and do you need this job?

If not then you need to learn to “play the game to get the most money while leaving”, if you do, then it’s “play the game to get the most money while staying”.

Both have their challenges 🙂

They don’t have to offer anything more that stautory redundancy which is peanuts

Surely that’ll depend what’s in his contract, not the new one?

Think they would struggle to prove my job was redundant when they have given me a new contract.

I read there was something called interim relief for “automatically unfair” dismissal which I think this could be, in which case you can apply to an emergency tribunal within 7 days to get your job reinstated – or at least full pay reinstated until the full tribunal. I guess I could try and string it out for 6-7 months until the tribunal on full pay then ask for a years salary in the tribunal.

Find an employment law specialist – most will provide an initial consultation free, so worth calling around. Was involved in a few mergers, TUPE has to be applied collectively and not simply to those from the merged business. You cannot simply dismiss anyone as a direct result of the merger otherwise it’s seen as constructive dismissal. Find out how they they have treated your old colleagues – you may have a collective case?

It is pretty hard finding a decent employment lawyer. I have been speaking to one recently and the response times are pretty poor.
If anyone can recommend a decent lawyer I would be interested.

My wife went through TUPE last year, read up and you can fight your own corner to a small degree. Her new employer was straight out the army and backed down when it was explained to her the extent employment law she was about to on the wrong side of.( it was a huge stress on my wife and sometimes life is just to short)
Next year the company I work for is going to be taken over by a huge US firm I expect to be on the sticky end and pushed out within months interesting times are ahead 😕
Multi nationals don’t care one jot about people.

Usual Jamba facts. You do not need representation at tribunals – indeed its actively discouraged. Nor can they make you redundant now because it would be obvious that its because you refused to sign up for the new contract

Moist likely is the will try to bully you, attempt claim you are redundant, then the UK HR will explain to the American bosses how UK law works and its compromise agreement time ie take this pile of money to shut up and go away

It is not constructive dismissal

As regards what tribunal will order as compensation – you only get your losses and no legal costs and you must try to mitigate your losses – so you effectivly get your pay between being unfairly dismissed adn getting a new job. top limit as well – only of a few thouesands IIRC but I amnot sure.

My advice – you need a law centre or CAB and read up on the law. Refuse to sign the new contract. wait to be dismissed. When the dismissal letter comes write back pointing out all their legal failures and stating you will be going to tribunal. they will try to use lawyers. That will cost them a lot so its worth it to them to pay you to shut up and go away. claim a years salery, settle for half that thru a compromise agreement.

UK firms HR are usually so incompetent that they make huge mistakes. US firms almost always so. I have run rings round HR in this sort of situation. Its not rocket science but most HR is useless and most US bosses dont realise we have some basic workers rights here.