This summer I have been road riding a lot more and have both the Etap Eryri and the tour de Mon at over 100miles each. I did both these on my Saracen Hack which has done the job admirable but it is heavy and I have felt the pain over the long distances.

So I want a new lighter bike to do these events on. I have kind of narrowed it down to 4 options a Giant Defy 1 (700), a Defy Composite 3 (800), a Felt Z6 Carbon (800) and a Felt Z85 alu (660). I have had a few rides around car park on the defy and it fits well, The Felts are very similar in sizing and style so am confident that they will fit well.

What I have noticed certainly after a fair few hours of riding is that I want comfort and not necessarily flat out speed. Will the Carbon fibre options give me more of that comfort or will the Alu frames be as forgiving? The bikes are all probably quite similar in weight (8.5-9kgs at guess) and I am happy with that. Do I go for a (hopefully) more forgiving CF frame and slightly more basic spec of a possibly harsher Alu frame with better bits?

Who has done waht in a similar situation?

Will the Carbon fibre options give me more of that comfort

Possibly and in theory, yes but it really depends how they have been designed with carbon. That said, carbon frames are rarely designed not to take advantage of the potential for vibration damping and some flex.

I’d read lots of review, see what people felt about them and then get the one with the best frame as you can upgrade the other bits over time and if you’re selective, quite cost effectively. You can probably save a good bit of weight quite cheaply by replacing stock, cheap wheels with some decent second hand ones.

pick the black one.

IME comfort on the bike on long rides comes from having done enough long rides to build up the necessary strength and endurance.

edit: and it fitting properly..

but both the felt bikes are black!!

I do agree with jambo to some extent but some frames are unquestionably less harsh over bad roads than others which does make a difference on long rides.

What about the new Saracen Avro?

The roads in north Wales are not the best!

I do agree about the training, but I still want any comfort I can possibly get to go along with all the training I will be (maybe) doing between now and the next one.

I have read a fair bit about the CF frames helping to minimise road buzz and over a long period of time that surely must add up to less fatigue. The bikes I have picked are the best one I have found for the most reasonable prices. I will look at the Saracen Arvo too.

Ignore the MTFU bullshit. This place never **** changes does it?

Of course some bikes are more comfy than others. There are a number of things at play though, not just frame material.

Tyre width is a biggie, with 25mm providing a lot more cushion and puncture security than 23mm – important on bad roads IME. Not all frames can take 25mm tyres, even if they look like there’s enough room and owners tell you they can. The wheel can still rub on the stays under load.

Frame material, seatpost and bars/tape also play a role, but some cheap carbon can feel harsh while some can be a touch flexy. Though perhaps only in comparison to more expensive frames.

From your list I’d probably go for the Defy Composite anyway, it’s got a great reputation.

Ignore the MTFU bullshit. This place never **** changes does it?

angry this morning?

hardly MTFU, in my experience, its sitting in the same position and pedalling for hours at a time is what makes me uncomfortable. the more of this I do, the longer I can do it for without discomfort…

No doubt about that but avoiding constant jarring can make a big difference to how you feel and (admittedly more specific to mtbing but to some extent it’s true for road) it can mean having to stand up off the saddle less frequently which saves effort too.

Basically, fitness helps you ride further more comfortably but there will always be an element of feeling stiff/sore if you ride long distances at any kind of pace. I’m not advocating that you can remove that completely like some (particularly mtbers new to road riding IME) try to do with huge tyres, loads of padding and every comfort device there is but at the same time, you can make smart choices that keep the bike fast and light but do a good job of increasing comfort/reducing jarring.

My wife just got a giant /liv avail composite which is the womens defy. £1500 with 11 speed ultegra, weighs 8kg!

It is noticeably smoother and more comfy along our devon lanes compared to my aluminium dale caad8 even though my caad8 has carbon laminated wheels (which are noticeably smoother than the stock ones it came with)

I’d say the defy composite would be great. That said the new canyon endurance could be perfect if you can wait long enough

http://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/series/endurace-cf.html

One of the Defys. I picked the aluminium one, the composite is nice but the Advanced are the proper carbon frames.
Reason for me, mudguard eyes, robust and the Defys are designed to be comfortable rather than just letting the material do the work.
I have pre ordered a new disc Defy Advanced Pro, but I’ll still di most of my riding on the old Alu Defy.
Rode an SR on mine including a 600km with no issues, taking it training to Belgium next week and the Pyrenees after that. Wonderful bike.
Comfy with the guards fitted over winter.

I’ve got the Defy Advanced 1, in excess of your budget, but I rode a number from the range and they were all excellent, a friend has the Defy Composite 3 and he reaches for it for sheer comfort over his rather nice TCR.

I think the Defy is a far more comfortable bike, especially over longer distances, I’ve done several 110+ mile rides without discomfort, I agree with the previous comments however about getting the bike correctly fitted, bar height, stem length, saddle tilt / height all makes a huge difference

Go carbon. I really can’t understand why anyone would buy an allu frame in this day and age.

The oft-spouted bull about a good allu frame being better than a crap carbon one is wearing a bit thin. The exponents of this theory always recommend a Cannondale in the same breath – don’t listen to them.

The carbon bikes you mentioned are far superior. Giant bikes all tend to be quite comfy – maybe not as lively as some but they’re great.

The composite is fine if you don’t want the guard option. Not sure about current models, but older composites were heavier than the alu ones. The alu is light alu, the Composite is plain moulded carbon. The Advanced’s are engineered carbon.
Been racing both since 2007, the evolution has been impressive. The new Advanced Defys are lighter and stiffer than my older TCR Advanced, yet still comfier.
Looking forward to my new one, months away yet.

Strangely though kudos a few outfits are bringing out top end race bikes in aluminium. I think the only argument re cheap carbon and aluminium applies to stiffness?

Test ride the Giants surely?

I’m considering an Alu Defy as a winter bike – got an Advanced as my main bike.

the composite Defy is slightly more comfy over long rides than the alloy one, I have ridden both.

Might I suggest that whatever you buy you will be happy. Buy according to groupset etc. Most importantly don’t buy black. It’s dead common, a bit like a black BMW.

racist.

Buy black, don’t buy black Its a minefield!

One last think before I actually have to buy a bike as opposed to talk about it…

If you are inbewteen sizes bo you go smaller or larger? I cannot decide if I like the longer or shorter Top Tube. Everything I have read suggests that going smaller is the way to do it as its easier to make a small bike fit. What are your opinions on this?

I think the only argument re cheap carbon and aluminium applies to stiffness?

some cheap carbon bikes weigh a lot.

me and my mate vought bikes about the same time (5 years back). i bought an alu boardman with tiagra/ 105. he got a carbon cube with ultgra/105. mine was a good 3 lbs lighter.

me and my mate vought bikes about the same time (5 years back). i bought an alu boardman with tiagra/ 105. he got a carbon cube with ultgra/105. mine was a good 3 lbs lighter.

I’d hazard a guess that most of that weight difference was in the finishing kit and wheels.

Because even if your Alu frame was a superlight 2.X lbs, that would mean his carbon one would have to be over 5 lbs, and that just isn’t likely.

Probably cut corners in the spec to fit in the carbon frame, so you’re right, some carbon bikes can be heavy, but it’s unlikely to be the frame making up the increased weight, the frame really is quite a small proportion of the overall weight of the bike compared to wheels and the rest of the kit.

I guess my point there is about looking at overall spec/package rather than just focusing on the frame, unless your long term goal is to upgrade it in which case looking for the best frame makes more sense.

also worth pointing out that while the Giant Composite carbon is lower spec than the Advanced, it’s still right up there with many of the rivals from other brands and in no way should be viewed as a cheapo carbon !

The oft-spouted bull about a good allu frame being better than a crap carbon one is wearing a bit thin. The exponents of this theory always recommend a Cannondale in the same breath

Cheers. I have models of each to compare, thanks, and intended usage is everything. If I wanted to go racing on the OP’s budget, I’d definitely be looking for alloy. In the OP’s case, however, and given his past experience and planned riding, I’d get the Defy Composite.

For sizing, I prefer to go smaller. Giant bikes have a good range. I’m 5’11” and ride a medium defy and a slightly longer stem. This makes a bike more stable when cornering because there is (slightly) more weight on the front wheel.

I’d hazard a guess that most of that weight difference was in the finishing kit and wheels.

not the wheels but quite possibly the rest of it.

I guess my point there is about looking at overall spec/package rather than just focusing on the frame, unless your long term goal is to upgrade it in which case looking for the best frame makes more sense.

+1.

also fit. I’ve just bought a new road frame whilst shopping around some brands just wouldn’t fit me (how i want) as i’m between sizes. Fit is so important particulary as you want to do longer rides.

I’ve got carbon and alloy framed road bikes, and also as it happens a Saracen Hack 2.

Fair play to you if you’ve clocked 100miles on the Hack! If it weighs the best part of 25lb like mine, then thats good going. I’m struggling at about 60 miles on mine. My road bikes, however, at nearer to 16lb are much less effort and I have no issues doing 100miles on those.

The carbon road bike does feel as though it mutes the bumps a bit more than the alloy ones. A simple comparison is that I find that water bottles rattle in their cages less over bumps and it sounds quieter over bumps. The alu ones both however feel more immediate and snappy under acceleration. Whether they’re less comfortable over a long distance I couldn’t say – I’m happy riding either.

Tarmac is in the most part fairly smooth, so to my mind if you’ve got the fitness and the correct position on the bike, then the differences in ‘comfort’ will be small. Or it will at least be easier to compensate with slightly bigger tyres, carbon seatpost, better shorts etc etc. Unlike on a mountain bike, where no one could persuade me that a hardtail can be as comfy as 140mm suspension!

It is cliched to say good aluminium beats cheap carbon, but my carbon frame is not significantly lighter than my “very good” alloy frames, so its a really tough call as to which I prefer or which is really genuinely “better”.

I got dropped at the end of tonights chaingang and it wasn’t that I was on an alloy bike compared to a carbon one!

Buy the one you like the look of 🙂

I have 3k carbon bike and a £300(8yr old)alloy bike, can’t really tell any difference in comfort because I provide 99% of the suspension. Don’t get much difference in speed either tbh but that probably because I also provide the energy.

Get the bike with the best paint job and ride the **** out of it. 🙂

They put carbon forks on aluminium bikes for a reason – aluminium is a stiff frame material and doesn’t absorb vibration or bumps easily. Carbon fibre can be made as stiff or as flexible as required and in different directions in the same tube. Most current carbon frames from manufacturers with a good reputation will out perform most aluminium frames.

In short, go for the Giant Defy Composite, even if the groupset is a notch or two lower than the ally bikes.

aluminium is a stiff frame material

Actually it isn’t. Stiffness is related to tube diameter not material. My Carbon Defy SL has the largest downtube you have ever seen. It has a VERY stiff bottom bracket as a consequence.

Alloy bikes are stiff because the lower strength of aluminum REQUIRES large tubes with more material, and that makes the frame stiff. Steel is much stronger, so requires less material and narrower tubes – hence steel frames are more flexible.

Thanks for the advice I am still undecided but really quite fancy carbon and the felt z6 looks fantastic, but so does the z85! I just need to sit on them to decide on the size!

Go carbon. I really can’t understand why anyone would buy an allu frame in this day and age.

The oft-spouted bull about a good allu frame being better than a crap carbon one is wearing a bit thin. The exponents of this theory always recommend a Cannondale in the same breath – don’t listen to them.

Get a Cannondale CAAD, mine’s 10 years old this year and I’ve still not found a replacement! It has been upgraded all the way from Tiagra and OEM parts to Dura ace, crabon cranks and Ritchey WCS finishing kit though, so shopping arround at similarly priced (it was upgraded over a long time with bargains) bikes with 105 kit is always a bit of a letdown.

On a serious note, if you flick through magazine grouptests with carbon and aluminium bikes at the same price then the aluminium framed bikes are averageing about a lb lighter beacuse they’re cheaper to make so get better groupsets, finishing kit etc. So as a bike to ride I’d probably get an alu frame, if it was a bike with a view to upgrading I’d be looking at more exotic frames. Finishing kit on cheap bikes will be variable, but not by as much as spalshing out on better kit later. If you get a carbon bike with crap kit, it costs the same to buy good stuff as buying a an alloy bike with mediochre kit and then buying the same upgrades.

Someone on our club has one of the new CAAD10 frames and won’t race it cos he doesn’t want to risk trashing it – he likes it that much so saves it for club runs.

I’d only go for an alloy frame if it was light as well as reputed to give a good ride. A “good” alloy frame might be nicely welded, fancy formed tube shapes, a forgiving ride for alloy….but I’d want it to be light weight too.

Cheap carbon frames from big brands, say a low end Trek Madone or even the supposed “light weight” Emonda weigh 1200g plus. So my Kinesis Aithein or Giant TCR SL weigh the same as that or less, and are a lot cheaper.

I ma nealry there! I’m 5″6 with long arms and having tried a few Medium Defy’s over the weekend am fairly happy that that is the size to go for. Tried means sat on and rolled about a bit. The Giant size chart says I should be in the small size but cannot find a Small to try out. The Small TT is 525, the Med is 545 (simlar to my Hack). I am fairly confident that I can get way with either size but its just niggling that I maybe should go smaller, but like I said the Medium felt fine….plus there are loads of amazing deals on all Defy sizes apart from the Small!

So anyone else who are shorter than average running a slightly larger size then the manufacturers recommend? I should state I have long monkey arms….Is there any benefit either way of going smaller or larger apart form its easier to make a smaller bike fit etc.

Mines also a Triggers Broom. And was surprised to see its actually a Defy 2. That said its now fully SRAM Force, PSL-R1 scandium tubeless wheels and all Deda Super Zero carbon kit, so not id it only tough and comfy its way lighter than most sub 2k carbon bikes.
These are do popular that they’re easily the most popular bike in our club.
Next week I’ll be riding Kwaremont, Paterberg, Koppenberg and up the Muur. The Defy is going with me for it.

I got a Defy 1 last year as my first proper road bike and absolutely love it, but I would definately would have gone for the composite frame if I’d had the option at the time.

As others have said, the wheels & tyres make a massive difference no matter which frame you get and the standard Giant ones certainly aren’t that light at all. I’ve recently swapped the tyres over from the standard Giant ones to Continental GP4000S II ‘s and the difference is amazing!! On my kitchen scales the wire beaded Giant tyres came in at 340g and the Continentals at 220g and you can really feel it on the road! Best upgrade ever!

plus there are loads of amazing deals on all Defy sizes apart from the Small!

I’d say that based on your height, you are a small. I think the standard stem length is 100mm for a Medium, and that will be what you sat on. A Medium with a shorter stem will fit if standover is not a problem – it shouldn’t be, but no shorter than 80mm is best.

Small and XS (Giant Avail) sold out because the model is so popular and they smaller sizes are made in lower numbers. I have had offers for our XS Avail from someone in a shop!

I’d say small as well.

I’d definitely concentrate on getting the fit right and then choosing the frame. If you’ve only come from MTB’s, the lower overall height of road bikes (short headtube / smaller stack height) might take some getting used to.

In recent years my road bikes have definitely moved towards taller head tubes and shorter top tubes. In your case a longer bike may help with the long arms but you could end up stretching too far. Stems are the obvious fix for this but you don’t really want to be running 70 or 130mm stems to get the right reach.

Any test rides really need to be at least 20 mins and not around a car park.

m1kea – The Saracen Hack is a drop barred CX/Urban style bike, so the OP should have at least some idea of how drop barred bikes fit.

I’d be comparing the geo of the Hack to any possible new bike in addition (or in the absence of) to a test ride.