Have we done this yet? Israel/Eugenics

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  • Have we done this yet? Israel/Eugenics
  • hels
    Member

    So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    thx1138
    Member

    What happens in other parts of the world doesn’t justify the murder of civilians, illegal land grabs , assassinations and violations of nuclear non proliferation treaties.

    Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it’s important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities. Do not for a minute think that I am defending Israel in any way by saying this, however. I welcome such criticism of what I see as a vile, corrupt hateful regime.

    Personally I’d say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

    What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    hels – Member
    So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    Completely facile.

    scaled
    Member

    Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it’s important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities. Do not for a minute think that I am defending Israel in any way by saying this, however. I welcome such criticism of what I see as a vile, corrupt hateful regime.

    It is the only one that’s doing so with over $2Bn annually of military ‘aid’ from arguably our staunchest military ally.

    yossarian
    Member

    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    i reckon quite a few of us have as it goes. What makes you think we are all proud of our imperial past? Or our attempts to create it in the present for that matter? We have the chutzpah alright. Its chutzpah thats needed from the average citizen that changes things, is it not?

    What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

    yep, you are right. I reckon that concerted protests by people of jewish descent living outside of Israel would send a pretty powerful message to Israel and perhaps more importantly to Her Western paymasters.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.
    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    Probably best you not bother given what else accompanied that statement.

    Junkyard
    Member

    I don’t think they are overlooked actually. The disgusting treatment of the Palestinian people by the state of Israel are crimes against humanity. What happens in other parts of the world doesn’t justify the murder of civilians, illegal land grabs , assassinations and violations of nuclear non proliferation treaties.

    Personally I’d say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

    You are either complicit in genocide or you aren’t.

    THIS

    So depressingly ignorant: Palestinian = good Israeli = bad.

    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    well i am happy to crticise historical acts if you like – not a fan of Ghengis khan either
    Did the empire do bad things YES – has this anything to do with israel NO

    Israel is not the only nation to do such. Which is why it’s important to focus not just on one nation, but all those committing atrocities.

    I think it ts the fact the Israel claims to be a democracy and a weestern one at that – i am not aware of any western democracy behving liek this
    Do other countries behave badly yes and if you weant to start a thread on each I will criticise them one by one. seems another attempt to suggest or nhint at racism here or that israelis not alone. name another westenr democracy that does this them please.

    Personally I’d say its the responsibility of all people of jewish origin, regardless of where they live, to put pressure on the state of Israel to remember the lessons of the past and change the future.

    What about all other people then? Do they not have to do anything? It is the responsibility of ALL people, regardless of origin etc, to denounce behaviour like that of the Israeli government, as well as that of many governments including our own.

    Well I try but when i dio i get called anti semitic .
    It might just carrumore weight if thee jewsish people everywhere spoke out – not an unreasonmable point eh. You know what i think french folk shoudl sort out france as well crazzzzy ehh

    The fact that other states are bad or that this country once did bad things is in no way a justification for what Israel is doing now nor is it a logical respoinse to criticism of israel – its a rather obvious attempt at obfusication to stop comments about israel and make us “defend”

    grum
    Member

    I can’t really be bothered, but it still stuns me that Brits can have the, let’s call it chutzpah, to criticise Israel. Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    Yes I have a degree in history thanks. You do realise what an incredibly poor argument this is don’t you? You would if you thought about it for more than a second surely.

    brakes
    Member

    yet another potentially interesting thread for debate de-railed by the usual suspects moving away from the original post and creating pointless tit-for-tat arguments to test their wiki-skills.

    Junkyard
    Member

    You cannot criticise Israel for your contry once had an empire – Grums right written like that it is a realy bad argument – if it is indeed an argument

    thx1138
    Member

    I reckon that concerted protests by people of jewish descent living outside of Israel would send a pretty powerful message to Israel and perhaps more importantly to Her Western paymasters.

    That you don’t appear to be aware that this already happens, on a large scale, shows just how ineffectual such protests seem to be:

    Well I try but when i dio i get called anti semitic .

    Really? When was the last time this actually happened?

    Where are these ‘Anti-Semites’? Tehran? Gaza? No, Stamford Hill actually:

    Please don’t think that Jews are not speaking out against the Israeli government, because it’s simple not true.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    brakes, why don’t you bring it back on track with one of your razor sharp insights? There’s a first time for everything.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    on a large scale

    You’ll have to define your idea of “large” for us.

    yossarian
    Member

    That you don’t appear to be aware that this already happens, on a large scale, shows just how ineffectual such protests seem to be:

    really? how large is large then? Is there a concerted boycott of israeli products? are there large scale demonstrations in the US? Are there any political parties? you know as well as I do that the political batleground is in america. What is happening there? These are all genuine questions by the way. I’m not going to spend 5 minutes on google looking for ways to justify my argument. Crazy!

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    Let’s not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.

    By for example suggesting that a cartoon of the leader of the government is anti-semitic?

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Is burning an Israeli flag anti-semitic then? To me it’s an example of the conflation we’ve been talking about.

    Junkyard
    Member

    Really? When was the last time this actually happened?

    This thread has been better than most [ you seem rational for example ] but yes I often get accused of anti semitism for criticising Israel.

    I usually reply by criticising China and Saudi so I can start to collect nations/races I supposedly hate

    Can we not flame the poster. they seem vastly outnumbered and not being that controversial or pro Israel on here – its nioce to have a rational voice of dissent rather than something like hles to dela with or some pro Israel can dow hat it likes views [ still time for the workers to do that tonight mind]

    Can the attack hounds just stand down a little please as he is no supporter of israel

    brakes
    Member

    brakes, why don’t you bring it back on track with one of your razor sharp insights? There’s a first time for everything.

    perhaps I don’t have any, but you knew that already.
    but I would be interested in those of others, if anyone would care to share them. unfortunately, those who profess to know about the subject would prefer to resort to petty squabbling rather than providing anything of readable value.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    aracer – Member

    “Let’s not confuse the current government, the State of Israel and Judaism.”

    By for example suggesting that a cartoon of the leader of the government is anti-semitic?

    It’s entirely possible that a cartoon of Bibi could be anti-semitic…are you talking specifics?

    thx1138
    Member

    You’ll have to define your idea of “large” for us.

    I’ve personally been to several large demonstrations in central London, with crowds numbering tens of thousands. Such events are rarely reported in the media, however. MP Gerald Kaufman has often publicly criticised Israel (and been denounced by others who are unable to listen to such views).

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/sir-gerald-kaufman/gaza-israel-palestine_b_2164599.html

    So there are many who oppose Israel. Just because you aren’t aware of such things, don’t mean they aren’t happening.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    Did the Israelis steal the Pally’s potatoes? Because, there’s no forgiving that if they did.

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    Tens of thousands? Really? Have you any reports of such demos? Serious question btw.

    thx1138
    Member

    I often get accused of anti semitism for criticising Israel.

    I’ve been accused of the same, called a ‘self hating Jew’ and other not quite such nice things. Such accusations won’t stop me speaking out, and they shouldn’t stop you or anyone else, either. If anyone accuses you of such, challenge them to prove it.

    ScottChegg
    Member

    Have you never studied the history of your own empire ?

    History is just that, of the past. Hopefully you evolve into better people over time; by acknowledging the past and learning from it.

    It’s not a strong defence to say ‘Well, your countrymen did worse 200 years ago’.

    Junkyard
    Member

    It’s entirely possible that a cartoon of Bibi could be anti-semitic…are you talking specifics?

    I assume the one in the Times

    Bad taste given the date of publication but it seem slegitiamte to say the “peace Wall” is built apon the Arbas – not least as tehy are stealing their land

    What is worse is we have folk being accused of anti semitism [ wehn it is not] then apologising. Its odd you can say what you like about mad Mullahs and Arabds and suicid ebombings etc but Israel if you do you must say sorry
    see also the lIb dem MP whom I linked to originally who had to apologise and that was basically factual and true and in no way a polemic.
    i fear that we are trying to get to the point where one cannot criticise Israel – whether this is nefarious design or not I dont knwo

    deadlydarcy
    Member

    perhaps I don’t have any, but you knew that already.

    I didn’t. But I do now. 🙂

    For the moment we’re sorting out separating criticism of the State of Israel from anti-semitism. Check back in a bit and we might be on track. (I doubt it though…this could go on for ages. Took nearly a page to clarify that we could leave human rights abuses by other states aside for now.

    Premier Icon Lifer
    Subscriber

    Ironic use of the word ‘perspective’ for that link, thx1138 (named after the film?)

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    I assume the one in the Times

    Indeed – I thought the reference was obvious – if you’ve missed that fairly high profile story, then are you really well enough informed to contribute to this debate?

    Not that I necessarily think the cartoon was reasonable or fair, but it hasn’t half got everybody out with the “anti-semitic” complaints, when the only obvious justification for that is a similarity to nazi propaganda (when the artist in question has used similar style for other subjects) and the fact it’s about the leader of the Israeli government.

    eyerideit
    Member

    It looks like Ethiopian Jews have more of right to be in Isreal than a lot of the Europeans who have holiday homes there.

    , Queen Sheba decided to visit him, taking with her gifts of gold, sapphires and ivory. Although she was received with honour, on the last night of her visit Solomon tricked her into sleeping with him and she returned to Ethiopia pregnant with a son. Beynalekem was born in Sheba’s capital Aksum and when he grew up he went to seek his father in Jerusalem. Solomon recognised and acknowledged him as his son and educated him in the art of kingship.

    The story of King Solomon and Queen Sheba

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