So good it needs posting twice:

http://www.b3ta.com/challenge/dailymail/

Class

No more politically-slanted than say..the Guardian 😯

And given the swastikas in your link I'm surprised the "anti facists" haven't demanded that the Mail is banned outright.

Why do some lefties burn with hatred so much? Take two topical issues at hand, namely immigration and racism. If popular opinion is to be believed then one seems to be the preserve of the left (pro-uncontrolled immigration), the other of the right (all right wingers are racists) Racism isn't out of control in any way compared to immigration, yet it's the left who seem most angry and filled with hatred. Ironic that aint it.

Aint it "Hope not Hate" etc?

Sir, I suggest you are a closet right winger stoking up a fight…

Enfit – immigration is not uncontrolled in the UK – that is the point. We have some of the tightest immigration controls in the world. We take a very small number of non EU immigrants. What is happening is the right wing press whip up a moral panic in order to further their racist agenda, to sell more papers or simply following the herd.

The effects of Racism are less than they were – due to the effect of the left you so hate agitating over this for decades. However it remains a htreat as embodied by the BNP

Spherical male objects

And TJ do you honestly believe you're views on racism are balanced?

Daily Mail readers should be sent back to where they came from.

And i include my Mum when i say that. 😀

enfit. Your? Yore? Yaw? 🙂

My views on racism are totally balanced. I am oft misrepresented on here tho. I call racism where I see it. People on here often claim I have called racism where I haven't.

What I said about immigration is completely true. We take a very small amount of non EU immigrants and less asylum seekers than other countries. A simple fact.

We need immigrants to run our services. Another fact. Without them our services would collapse.

We take a very small number of non EU immigrants

How many EU migrants then TJ? Does the Govt know yet, after their "wildy innacurate" intial forecast of, I think, 49,000ish… Since access to the UK for EU residents was unrestricted since 2004, it can hardly be termed "controlled".

I'd love it if reality reared it's bulbous tip and the pro/anti immigration arguments could be discussed without the red herring of Racism. It's boring.

EDIT

We need immigrants to run our services. Another fact.

No, we need livable wages for those working in our services, unless you believe there is no option but declining living standards for those doing so. Remind yourself, it's not a demographics problem. There are plenty of potential bin men and nurses here already, we either don't want to pay them or train them.

EU immigration is uncontrolled by its nature. EU involves freedom to travel within the EU. Hence all the brits retiring to Spain. A similar number to the working EU immigrants who come to the UK IIRC – a few hundred thousand.

I'd love it if reality reared it's bulbous tip and the pro/anti immigration arguments could be discussed without the red herring of Racism. It's boring.

There might be some legitimate concern about immigration, but the Mail and Express certainly don't have anything to do with it.

yet it's the left who seem most angry and filled with hatred

one can be angry without hatred…

dr dolittle
are you suggesting communism, all wages to be equal??

A similar number to the working EU immigrants who come to the UK IIRC – a few hundred thousand.

From the BBC in 2006.

I'd also suggest that the retirees moving to Spain are quite likely to have the capital to look after themselves should they require help, and bar putting pressure on housing in the area they relocate to, do not negatively impact the population of Spain to quite the same degree that a young immigrant workforce that is able to work for peanuts for a few years then return home with their earnings has on a young workforce that has to consider the longterm practicalities of living here, and has no other country in the EU to move to and earn the same nest egg.

but Dr Doolittle what is it you dont like about foreigners? why dont you want them working here

dr dolittle
are you suggesting communism, all wages to be equal??

Does it look like I am?

I'm suggesting that declining material standards of living for a large proportion of the country could be avoided, or at least decreased, by real training opportunities and better wages for those doing service industry jobs, and that mass immigration leads to lower wages for these people.

I'm also saying that I'm really tired of how that cannot be discussed without cheerleaders for the NeoLiberal Right throwing accusations of "Racism" around with glee abandon knowing full well that it will shut down any dissent.

I watched one of these "Let's all bugger off to Spain" type programmes about a chap doing the whole reverse immigrant thing. He was a taxi driver in Britain and wanted to move there with his wife and two young children for the usual reasons – Britain too expensive, weather, too many bloody foreigners etc.

He decided to support himself by becoming a pool cleaner, a low paid job about which he knew naff all, and spent the entire programme muttering about how crap Spain was, how he was treated shabbily because he was foreign etc. His kids went into a Spanish school and his wife set up a part time business doing beauty treatments. The programme only covered a few months but I expect that sooner or later he got fed up and came back to Britain. 🙂

but Dr Doolittle what is it you dont like about foreigners?

What makes you think I don't like foreigners? The people I dislike in this situation are all White British politicians.

Dr doolittle – there can be a debate about immigration which is not racist – as you show above. However the norm is that people objecting to immigration are being racist. Therefore it is hard for those who use kneejerk reactions to separate the two issues.

oh you only dislike the people that let the foreigners in, well thats different

cheerleaders for the NeoLiberal Right

I'm losing track. Do you mean Jeremy? 🙂

However the norm is that people objecting to immigration are being racist.

Many are, I don't doubt it. Since 2004 however, and the "unexpected" influx of EU residents, a new situation has arisen, that which I have attempted to allude to above. My observations lead me to believe that there are many who would in the past have considered themselves "liberal" or "of the Left" and are now indulging their twitchy knee and shutting down what is a debate about how Govt policy further disadvantages those already at the lower strata of British society. Of course this technique is also being used by the establishment unaffected by this change and set to profit from more people going for the same amount of work. Supply and demand.

oh you only dislike the people that let the foreigners in, well thats different

100% correct. Well done.

Dr dolittle i believe you are complaining because immigrants are taking british workers jobs

have worked very summer between uni in various factories/crappy agency jobs in fair luton i can confirm that by far and away some of the laziest workshy freeloading scumbags i have ever come across are white and english, with george cross bumper stickers and a suspect a family tradition of criminal activity and milking every kind of free benefit they can out the system.

The presence or absence of immigrants is irrelevant, quite frankly id be happy to have any of the dilligent conscientous nigerians, poles, columbians etc who work in my hospital over the afore-mentioned white english lay-abouts

i agree that education, training and a huge increase in the basic wage are whats needed, eg thousands of poles travel to east anglia every year to pick crops because the locals wont do the job, is it really fair to deny someone who wants to work the opportunity to do so because they werent born here when the brits dont want the job

by far and away some of the laziest workshy freeloading scumbags i have ever come across are white and english

That is the most racist remark I have seen on STW.

He did say 'some' though.
Plenty of lattitude for other races or countries to have workshy freeloading scumbags too 🙂

fair one, what race were the others?

Dr dolittle i believe you are complaining because immigrants are taking british workers jobs

I tried my hardest to expain my position. If you don't understand it or think the situation described is a good thing, well there's little I can do.

Dr Dolittle – I understood your point. I don't agree with you completley and there are complex factors that you don't account for but its a clear and rational point without xenophobia IMO

there are complex factors that you don't account for

Such as? I'm fully cognisant of the purpose of "the free movement of labour" within the EU. That is what this boils down to. I'd suggest "The Grapes of Wrath" as a starter if I was a pretentious type.

As for the knee jerk hate spew courtesy of Kimbers above, I'd suggest cancelling the subscription to whatever loathsome NeoLib publication jerks his chain.

Dr dollitle. One of the main sources of jobs for EU immigrants is in care homes. There is not a free market in care homes as there is a cap on fees ( from state funding which is the bulk of funding). Much of what happens is regulated as regards to the number of staff on duty and so on – the result is wages are depressed and cannot rise to increase recruitment as there is not the money to do so.

Same with NHS – wages cannot rise without government agreement.

Therefore the influx of people willing to work for these wages does not depress the wage levels as the wage levels are held down by other direct and indirect means.

That is one factor. In this case the influx of immigrants does not hold down the wages

In this case the influx of immigrants does not hold down the wages

True dat. I wonder why the Govt would spend £100,000 of tax payers cash on training each nurse, then suggest we "need" others from the EU to do the same job.

My experience is observing skilled tradesmen with many years of experience undercut by young men from EU countries without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK. Now I suppose for certain sections of society this is a good thing, until that is the end result of unemployment and financial stress decides to climb in through their kitchen window and pinch the Philippe Starck lemon squeezer.

I was in Cologne over 'that' new years when Europe changed to the Euro. We went to a nightclub (dont recall name) and the change over from Marks was flawless. Got home and read my mums (think Hyacynth Bucket) Daily Mail, which had a report from that same Cologne nightclub about how the change over went. What a load of tosh- they said there was mass confusion and que's comeing out of the door.
What a load of ****locks! 🙄

My experience is observing skilled tradesmen with many years of experience undercut by young men from EU countries without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK.

Were these the same tradesman who have been making huge amounts of money charging what many would call exorbitant rates. Isn't this meant to be how free market capitalism works?

I'd suggest cancelling the subscription to whatever loathsome NeoLib publication jerks his chain.

well i only subscribe to dirt, its noy very neolib afaik

My experience is observing skilled scientists with many years of experience from EU countries (and beyond) without the same outgoings or long term cost associated with living in the UK coming to our labs bringing expertise and knowledge to the world class leading institutes in this country.
They are here because they are the best candidates for the job are they taking the jobs uk graduates could be geting? yes
do they help make uk institutes among the best in the world?-yes
I also see the queues of polish casual labourers waiting to be picked up by builders coming off the a4 at hammersmith in the mornings both groups contribute to our economy, they are here to work let them, if uk workers arent competitive enough they will have to raise their standards, surely this is good for them and all of us
the protectionism you want drdolittle will weaken the country

Were these the same tradesman who have been making huge amounts of money charging what many would call exorbitant rates.

I couldn't possibly say. They were charging the going rate for the skills that those paying for them didn't have, that's free market capitalism for you… You wouldn't be one of those middleclass types who can't understand the value of blue collar skills, would you grumm? If there were huge amounts of money to be made, why oh why did you not avail yourself of the opportunity rather than storing up so much bitterness against those horny handed sons of toil?

EDIT.Since I'm in a supposing mood, I'll suppose you think that the hourly rate of a plumber is unrelated to to the dearth of affordable training courses and modern apprenticeships in the UK, and that it was therefore essential to bring in folks from eastern European countries "to do jobs the British don't want to do"? For "exorbitant rates"? Crazy logic.

By the way, I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia or Canada. Then kimbers could rest easy that his favourite source of cheap labour, ie everybody apart from those lazy,

white and english… workshy freeloading scumbags

, were here to improve the country through skills and a work ethic strangely alien to the to their equal, but less equal international bretheren.

This is the best bit

if uk workers arent competitive enough they will have to raise their standards,

And what exactly do you mean by "competitive" Kimbers? You don't mean "cheaper" by any chance, do you? That would mean that instead of improving this country, they are simply leading the race to the bottom in wages and working standards. I'm sure that's not what you meant though, I really get the impression that your unoriginal NeoLib/Nulabour ideology is well thought through and altruistic to the core.

You wouldn't be one of those middleclass types who can't understand the value of blue collar skills, would you grumm? If there were huge amounts of money to be made, why oh why did you not avail yourself of the opportunity rather than storing up so much bitterness against those horny handed sons of toil?

Not really no, and I'm certainly not bitter – never had much skill or interest in the 'trades'. I just think some people have had it pretty cushy for quite a few years and are now quite bitter that it's not going to be quite so cushy any more.

They were charging the going rate for the skills that those paying for them didn't have, that's free market capitalism for you…

And now they (and you) are whining about it when the system doesn't work out quite as favourably for them.

BTW – 'horny handed sons of toil' – pretentious expression of the day I think, well done! 🙂

I just think some people have had it pretty cushy for quite a few years and are now quite bitter that it's not going to be quite so cushy any more.

Ahh, middleclass schadenfraude…again I'll ask, why do you resent someone with a decent income…are you a communist?

BTW – 'horny handed sons of toil' – pretentious expression of the day I think, well done!

How about "pearls before swine", in the context of humour?

why do you resent someone with a decent income…are you a communist?

I've no problem with decent tradesmen making a decent living – however the shortage of some tradesmen in certain areas meant muppets and cowboys could also make a decent living. Not a good thing surely?

Why do you resent foreign workers so much?

I'd love to see an immigration policy for the UK similar to that of Australia …
of that of I have no doubt dr

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3023107.stm

Why do you resent foreign workers so much?

Although I've endeavoured above to make this clear, and I certainly do not feel obliged to do so, I'll say it once again.

I do not dislike foreigners, foreign workers, workers from abroad or any other possible permuation of the above. I am aware however of the negative effect of the open border EU immigration policy and what it has resulted in for many people in this country. I dislike intensely the political grouping that introduced a policy with no democratic consent that has made the lives of a great section of the population much more difficult than it was already or needed to be. I also feel obliged to challenge people that repeat without apparent thought the mantra of cheap=good, flexible=/=bend over and accept the new shiny face of Mandelson and co's shafting by global financial "NGOs".

however the shortage of some tradesmen in certain areas meant muppets and cowboys could also make a decent living.

And why was there a shortage if huge amounts of money were to be made? Because the pathways for training haven't changed in 30 years. And since Thatcher's well documented disgust for the (potentially unionised) working class, continued by Major and taken to the nth degree by Blair, our pathways and funding, let alone facilities for training in the trades has and continues to be neglected.

I'd rather see real, not for profit training centres training those who need it in this country rather than the £3,000 mickeymouse courses jobcentre staff are required to refer customers to. And I'd also like to see a repeal on the refuted ideology that all service jobs should be contracted out to profit making companies, hopefully so that those doing the jobs could afford to live a life of a standard recognisable to their parents.

When you stop giving a shit about this you may as well just give up on the UK, or whever you live. It seems lots of people have already done so. If you can find anything Racist/xenophobic in this well that's your problem.