Hi chaps,

Given the trend toward longer and slacker bikes, do hardtails gain the same benefits from longer geometry?

Or, that longer geometry that allows the bike to remain more stable through chunder, does that mean you’ll end up just getting more battered on a hardtail and not be able to change direction and pick your way through stuff better?

Cheers

Ricks

Edit: Hi Rickon – wrote my bit then realised it’s you! Still relevant tho…

This week I’ve done my first two big rides on my new P7, which pretty much fits your description. I have to say I’m amazed. Geometry is the key. It’s longish, slack and low, but with a nice short stem. Just feels mint on every descent I’ve done here in Calderdale – fast twisty skinny stuff, rocky and choppy stuff, steep techy stuff. I went for a medium, so not as long a wheelbase as a large but it’s still long and stable enough, plus it has plenty of agility and ‘pop’. Hope that helps.

Bingo! I win!!! 😀

Oh sorry, we were playing Marketing man Bullsh@t Bingo right?

Lol. I’ve been through some threads from 2010, and it’s amazing that the word ‘Chuckable’ is used a hell of a lot, but no one uses that at all these days.

Quite…

Buy the bike that suits your riding style. For me that’s 29ers cos of the speed and grip, slack HA for confidence, short stays so they’re still relatively easy to get round corners, and long (but not #Enduuuuuuro long) reach so I can run a 50mm stem yet still pedal it to the top.

Your priorities may be different…

Chuckable was an over used term that people who grew up riding BMX, jump bikes etc. Used to justify bikes that were too small for them. Don’t get me wrong, I owned more than one bike that was too small for me over time, but I’m faster and in a lot more control of the bike these days which I prefer. Some don’t, some like to feel like they’re on the ragged edge on fairly tame trails. It’s all about choice…

Much more stable for me as the additional reach combined with a slack head angle makes it feel like I have a much bigger sweetspot for moving over the front or over the back without feeling like I’ve gone too far. That said I’m 6ft 3 so almost always at the upper end of sizing, short arses may not notice this as much, particularly short arses riding 29ers.

rickon – Member
Lol. I’ve been through some threads from 2010, and it’s amazing that the word ‘Chuckable’ is used a hell of a lot, but no one uses that at all these days.

The best bit about a hardtail is it’s “chuckability” but most MTBers lack the skills to really make the most of that. Hence, just go really long/low/slack with long forks so they feel “confident” down hills.

If you’re just doing downhilling then get something like the above. But it’s sort of missing the point of a hardtail and you’d be better off on a full susser.

Chuckable was an over used term that people who grew up riding BMX, jump bikes etc. Used to justify bikes that were too small for them. Don’t get me wrong…

All my bikes are too small for me but i don’t have to justify them to anyone.

…I owned more than one bike that was too small for me over time, but I’m faster and in a lot more control of the bike these days which I prefer

You might be faster but you don’t have more control. Maybe you are a better rider now than you were when you had a ‘chuckable’ bike? (although i think that DT’s first comment applies here).

And as for poppy? I’ve said it before and i’ll say it again – guns don’t kill people – rappers do bikes aren’t poppy – riders are.

mboy – nice trolling there! 😉 Let me help you re-phrase that –

Chuckable was an under-used term amongst people who fail to realise that cycling – especially off road – is all about FUN. These warped individuals spent their lives going bigger, harder, faster, when any idiot knows that bikes are for smiles, and that the size of the smile is inversely proportional to the size of the frame. Don’t get me wrong, I owned more than one bike that was officially the right size for my height, but I decided I preferred happiness over misery. Some don’t, some like to think that going for a Sunday morning ride is a competition, and smiling is for children. It’s all about choice…

doing downhilling

Dad! Stop embarassing me on the internet! I HATE YOU THIS IS SO UNFAIR!!!!

Dad! Stop embarassing me on the internet! I HATE YOU THIS IS SO UNFAIR!!!!

😀 you’ve “whooshed” me I think.

long front for stability, short back end for poppines

davidtaylforth – Member
Hence, just go really long/low/slack with long forks so they feel “confident” down hills.

This is exactly why I like the current geometry fashion. You may be taking the piss but are spot on in my case and I’m very comfortable with that 🙂

+1 rubber buccaneer – I basically ride xc/all mountain (or whatever you want to call it) to reach the best downhills. The hardtail I’m riding suits me perfectly for that, and I like the whole long/slack thing, always have. There might be quicker options out there for covering big distances or for full-on DH riding, but I’m in it for the fun.

I’m just about to get back on my very long/low/slack hardtail after riding my not quite as long/low but equally slack full-sus for a few weeks. I have a theory about this but will report back!

I’m afraid whoever says that “bikes aren’t poppy, riders are” has got to be talking bollocks. While, of course, a good rider can yank the bars upwards on any bike, there is a huge difference in the playful feeling of a nice poppable bike, and one where you have to be ironman to get the front end up off the ground.

I’m going to start a trend of short front triangles, long rear ends. See how long it takes until people wax lyrical about how easy it is to get weight over the front and rear wheel to drift.

kimbers – Member
long front for stability, short back end for poppines

Just what I was going to say. All relatively speaking of course, and with a short stem.

I’m afraid whoever says that “bikes aren’t poppy, riders are” has got to be talking bollocks. While, of course, a good rider can yank the bars upwards on any bike, there is a huge difference in the playful feeling of a nice poppable bike, and one where you have to be ironman to get the front end up off the ground.

The flipside of this is that hucking 40lb downhill bikes off massive BMX doubles is what manly men do. The kinds of men who drink whisky and smoke.

😆

Always laugh a bit inside when I see a pikeyish downhiller going bigger than the bmxers.

Hence, just go really long/low/slack with long forks so they feel “confident” down hills.

you have to be a total puddle of **** to think that this is a problem TBH

you’ve “whooshed” me I think.

your trolling makes you sound like an old man

It’s hardly trolling; it’s the reality.

you have to be a total puddle of **** to think that this is a problem TBH

It’s not a problem. Ride whatever bike makes you happy. But the people who laugh at the “chuckability” of a smaller bike are those that don’t have the skills to ride one properly.

Rubber_Buccaneer – Member
This is exactly why I like the current geometry fashion. You may be taking the piss but are spot on in my case and I’m very comfortable with that

Exactly.

I’m afraid whoever says that “bikes aren’t poppy, riders are” has got to be talking bollocks. While, of course, a good rider can yank the bars upwards on any bike, there is a huge difference in the playful feeling of a nice poppable bike, and one where you have to be ironman to get the front end up off the ground.

Kind of agree with that – I have just replaced my stolen Mk I Switchback Ti with the Mk II which has a longer reach. It feels like a faster bike, but isn’t as playful and doesn’t ‘encourage’ you to find things to hop off etc in the way that the old one did.

I enjoyed last nights ride a lot more than I did Friday’s as I get used to it.

Always laugh a bit inside when I see a pikeyish downhiller going bigger than the bmxers.

You need to ride with better BMX’ers

I’m afraid whoever says that “bikes aren’t poppy, riders are” has got to be talking bollocks. While, of course, a good rider can yank the bars upwards on any bike, there is a huge difference in the playful feeling of a nice poppable bike, and one where you have to be ironman to get the front end up off the ground.

Spoken like a true non-poppy rider 😛

p.s. if you’re yanking on the bars to get ‘pop’ you’re doing it wrong – it’s all in the legs

p.s. if you’re yanking on the bars to get ‘pop’ you’re doing it wrong – it’s all in the legs

I agree with Euro! That’s novel. 😉 The legs pop, the hands follow. Sometimes it looks like the hands are pulling the bars up but they’re not, they’re just letting the bike come up after you’ve launched it.

So I just had a quick blast on the hardtail Gnarpoon. It’s a bit lower and slacker than the P7, fractionally longer front, shorter chainstays. It just feels really right. My full-sus doesn’t feel too short and my hardtail doesn’t feel too long. I think it’s a bit like the Jones+ philosophy – the hardtail benefits more from the stability of the longer wheelbase due to the lack of rear suspension causing instability. I’m still trying to decide if it needs a shorter stem and whether to take the forks up from 130 to 140mm (the Pike feels best with quite a bit of sag).

Oh sorry, we were playing Marketing man Bullsh@t Bingo right?

That’s a bit rich coming from you. 😛

Chipkorea nailed it 😀

I ride an experimental downhill/XC/gnarmac/BMX track/all mountain/skatepark/popping to the shops fusion I like to call ‘pissing about on a bike for a laugh in my spare time’*.

Small hardtail FTW.

* courses are available at £85 per day, per person. Bring a sense of humour and the ability to laugh at yourself.

I agree with Euro!

Quoting for posterity as it doesn’t happen much on here 😀

Must admit I’ve wondered how the LLS trend affects ‘poppy’ or ‘chuckable’ bikes. I love my 140mm 29er full suss 95% of the time but the 5% is when I miss having a tighter 26″ that was easy to get bits of air off any little bump. The 29er does not like leaving the ground.

I’d considered going 650b FS or HT to regain that ‘arsing about’ aspect of riding but assumed that the current trend wound lean more towards stability, as my 29er does. 😕

Depends on what you want…longer slacker are quicker/more stable…if you get your kicks from spends and how quick you can get down a section probably what you’re looking for.

Smaller, shorter stays etc…more playful not quite as stable DH…totally depends on riding style!

That’s a bit rich coming from you.

The OP and I are friends Stu, it was an “in joke” to do with his profession…

For balance I like my 66degree HA 660 reach 29er HT.I also like my 71degree 420 reach 29er.
They both fit me.
I don’t like bikes where my knees hit the shifters and I have to slide the seat all the way back on the rails and use a longer stem (or ‘rotate the bars forward’) to try and make it fit…..because ‘smaller bikes are more chuckable’.

I don’t understand much of what just happened. I feel like I have even less in common with you now

I don’t like bikes where my knees hit the shifters and I have to slide the seat all the way back on the rails and use a longer stem (or ‘rotate the bars forward’) to try and make it fit…..because ‘smaller bikes are more chuckable’.

I don’t do any of that on my ‘smaller bikes are more chuckable’ bikes, i just bend a bit more. When you’re 6’5″ and grew up riding bmxs, a large mtb feels big. An XL/XXL bike (the size that would fit me) feels horrible. My largest frame (20″ 456SS) has a top tube so high that my bars only turn 90 degrees before fouling. My barspin days are over but i’m still partial to the odd x-up and it’s not possible on this bike.

These next gen bikes look to be a better fit for me. If i get round to changing what i have, i may well change my opinion on ‘chuckable’ but my existing bikes aren’t broken and i don’t just buy bikes cause i fancy a change (odd i know 😛 )

I think it’s a bit like the Jones+ philosophy – the hardtail benefits more from the stability of the longer wheelbase due to the lack of rear suspension causing instability.

Some truth in that yet what I like about the Jones mk1 non-plussed is that the thing’s so short it can be moved around in and out of trouble so well. At some point you have to accept it’s a rigid bike / frame so imo there’s less point going really Enduro on your geometry than there is with a susser, but hey why not if that’s what feels good to you. It’s all pros and cons and there’s no one aspect of a bike that defines how it rides.

Hardtails can be great when they’re little jumpy things or longer smashy things. In any of that I don’t think the ability to hop a bike comes from the front/rear centre balances, not as much as the short-stays thing gets credit for anyway. It’s more about where your weight is between pedals and bars in relation to the wheels, however you get there. Some bikes set you up in a good natural position and some need you to move out of the natural position a bit more to get those movements right. Nothing a bit of willingness to work with the bike can’t overcome usually. Back to skills and preferences.

I’m 5’11” and admit to owning a 15.5″ (my measurement) Dialled Alpine. For a while it was my main MTB, and my riding style is perhaps best described as XC. Long seat-post, saddle back and a 70mm stem not my normal 50mm.

When I say I like a chuckable, small bike I don’t just mean in terms of getting air… its just easier all round to ride nimbly.

I resisted buying a full sus bike for years, mainly because they all liked like XC race machines (not my thing at all) or just far too big – too tall, too long, too much travel. 29″ wheels have always looked ridiculous to me, and to be honest I only bought my Trek Fuel EX9 650b because it looked like a nice balance and not too big (the fact that the shop had the smaller of the two medium sizes on sale convinced me, and that getting a decent new 26″ wheel full sus looked to be getting harder.)

I love my Trek – its my go to MTB now, mainly because it is the most comfortable bike have and partly because its a bit quicker than 26″ wheels I’m used to. And because it has the best kit on it of any of my MTBs. But I really can’t see me ever buying a 29er, and I can’t see myself ever having more than one 650b. I can’t see myself ever having fewer than one or two 26ers. In fact typing this I’m wondering if I shouldn’t be looking for a cheeky little 26er full sus second hand – wouldn’t surprise me if it would make me fall totally out of love with my 650b Fuel.

Now, now children settle down. Back to the original post, how about this:- Titus Fireline- short ,poppy ,stable, light, 29er, goes up well, goes down well.