Not trolling ,now i understand that some hard tails with slacker head angles are for more knarly riding with bigger forks but having ridden quite a few different hard tails with simular geometry and builds,i personaly couldn’t tell one from the other.In the end i suppose its down to personal preferance and brand loyalty/bling love or wanting the latest bike.I personaly cannot see how the little tweaks to frame geometry made by the manufactures every year can ever be noticable to the average rider ie me.Thoughts please

My 2010 Soul rides a whole heap differently to my 2010 Pipedream Sirius R853

Both were ridden with 120mm forks and both can take 140mm IIRC.

The Soul has it hands down in how it feels ….. flexier in the rear (ooh Matron) that isn’t wasn’t matched by the Sirius.

Not sure that helps though 😛

Design/tube profiles etc seem to make the greatest difference.

How long did you ride the bikes you have tried for?

No specific brand loyalty here.

you are right.

Same goes for most kit, innit. I am the limiting factor in my riding – not the latest do-dah-damping in the forks or the amazing 1* slacker head angle or the uber-science wide handlebar.

Still, that is not a reason to *not* enjoy shiny new kit…

i personaly couldn’t tell one from the other

I bloomin could. Aside from my own bikes (of which the Handjob is completely different from the Principia Mac B!), I demo’ed a few and of those I remember: Charge Duster (steel); ‘Dale (carbon); Pace (alu) and Rivette (alu) all had different ride characteristics. I couldn’t go into journo speak to tell you what those differnces actually were, but they were certainly different. The Rivette was pretty similar to the Principia, but the others weren’t

Have tried various hard tails over the years,steel,ali and carbon and if i was bieng honest and wearing a blind fold(not to be recomended)i wouldnt be able to tell them apart.The handling characteristics were all basically the same

I can tell the difference between the 4 hardtail frames I’ve owned.

While there may be differences in the way a bike rides, they are subtle – too subtle to make a difference during a ride.

I like riding my steel bike. I like riding my aluminium one.

A lot of people believe the hype surrounding products. If no one had read in a magazine that a steel hardtails are flexy and more comfortable that alu, no one would have really noticed.

The ride of my new carbon road bike is far far superior to my previous aluminium one.

The same must go for mtb hardtails too.

Yes

daznal I personaly cannot see how the little tweaks to frame geometry made by the manufactures every year can ever be noticable to the average rider ie me.Thoughts please

Do you think you would be able to detect a 0.5 degree change in an angle? 1 degree? 2 degrees? 5 degrees? How large does a change need to be before you notice it?

Can you tell the difference between a twenty year old bike and a 2011 bike?

Can you tell the difference between a twenty year old bike and a 2011 bike

Is it the amount of purple anodising on the 20 year old bike?

I own 3 hardtails and I can tell which one I’m riding. Every frame has it’s own way of riding, I’m not sure I could always tell you which was which riding blind but I’d be able to say ‘they’re different’.

It is to an extent down tot he compenent choice too though – you build a frame up to complement its characteristics so theat has a bearign on how it feels and how it feels different to another bike.

Yep.. I had this built up

Then bought a Titanium djab frame and converted everything over

(yes, i know in this pic its SS and has different bars,post tyres. but initially i swapped over everything from the sobo)

the djab was a world of difference. Sobo being very very harsh (and extremely light). The djab handles the rough stuff better and feels like it soaks up vibrations better.. yes really!

Then again the geometry is different for both frames (both are 100mm HT)

EDIT: checking out the differences they are very similar

Djab : H/A 71 S/A 73.5
Sobo: H/A 71 S/A: 73

http://pedaldamnit.blogspot.com/2008/05/voodoo-d-jab.html

http://www.voodoocycles.net/sobo.htm

“Do you think you would be able to detect a 0.5 degree change in an angle? 1 degree? 2 degrees? 5 degrees? How large does a change need to be before you notice it?”

I’m talking about bikes with simular geomatry from different manufactures not ones with hugely different head angles

i changed from an inbred (26) to a scandal (29)

the biggest difference was in the way the front wheel takes hits, they seem to transfer through the whole bike, rather than being absorbed a bit.

this is wheh rigid. with suspension the difference is less marked.

I’d be more inclined to agree that forks, tyres, tyre pressures, wheels, spokes, saddle, riding position etc etc are being ‘felt’ or having an effect on the ride.
The only real difference I notice in my allu XC frame and steal 456SS frame is the difference in weight between the whole bikes and the very different geometry (riding position and head angle).

Even as a relatively inexperienced no skills rider I can tell the difference between frames and setups but I couldn’t tell you why something feels different and I’ve virtually no idea how geometry affects things.

My R853 Sirius feels a little stiffer out back than the 853 Inbred it replaced which does make it a tad harsher but equally (as a relatively heavy rider) that makes it feel a little more direct on climbs. Not better or worse, just different.

A frame though is just one component and in my opinion fiddling with the contact points (bars, saddle etc.) and getting the ride position (and weight distribution) right can make the biggest difference.

mmm – old Trek 7000ZX – aluminium with wishbone stays and alu seatpost used to proper beat the living daylights out of me, did not like it, at all…
Fisher Ziggurat – 2006 – carbon seat stays and seat post – is so much more comfortable…

Fisher definately feels (but could be ‘in the mind’) much more direct – put the pedal down, it moves and agile but , that said, geometries, top tube length etc, completely different…

Not a hardtail but swapping the shock position on my prophet knocks a degree or 2 off the angles, and yes, it is very noticable. I’ve had numerous hardtails and have 3 at the moment and they all ride slightly diferently and obviously diferent geometries suit diferent people as everyone has diferent proportions. I really get on with GT and kona frames as they fit me well but others just feel a bit weird as soon as I sit on them.

(Opens ebay in another tab to search for a GT/Kona frame…)

I had identical angled frames, one alloy one ti – the ti one was a copy of the alloy one. Could I tell the difference? Absolutely. If both were alloy or both steel, it would depend on how they were built. With the ti and the alloy, the steering was essentially the same, the ride feel of the frame definitely wasn’t. I guess it might have been if the ti frame have been deliberately overbuilt and very solid, but it wasn’t.

As far as angles go, I stuck a 1-degree slacker headset on my singlespeed, I can feel the change in steering. Two degrees slacker makes a very, very obvious difference.

forks, tyres, tyre pressures, wheels, spokes, saddle, riding position etc etc are being ‘felt’ or having an effect on the ride

Of course they do. I can’t believe I me! has been accused (indirectly) of being suckered by magazine hype. HA!

bb height makes a massive difference to me as well.. with my forks all the way out (140mm) my bike feels a bit twitchy and dodgy round corners, wind in to about 125mm and the BB is lowered quite a bit, which makes it much more stable and nice despite the slightly steeper head angle.

I think the key word here is comfort. I can tell if one bike is more comfortable than another. If it’s more comfortable I will ride it further for longer, and go over rougher trails etc. As for technical ability of said different bikes I wouldn’t have a clue how to quantify if one is better than another.

I ride my girlfriend’s ’07 Orange Clockwork steel hardtail and my ’99 Dekerf Generation steel hardtail and they feel very different.

Mine feels smooth and the smoothness and the relatively racey position makes you want to pedal your ass off and feels fun and whippy through twisty singletrack.

Hers feels slow on the flat heavy, stiff, and hard work to get anywhere on. Point it downhill though, and it feels so much more planted and solid through the front wheel and the bars, makes me feel like a hooligan downhill.

I’d love to know what’s the biggest factor in the difference. I used to think it was mine being lighter but having old wibbly forks, but got myself some reba maxles but while it’s improved the steering, the difference in the characteristics is still clear. Maybe I’ll try a more in depth look at the geometry, but at the end of the day, I’m going to keep mine, and she’s going to keep hers. Taking a couple of pounds of the clockwork can only help, though.

i seem to remember an article in a mag a few years back where they had two Charge frames with identical builds and paint jobs.

they let people go and ride them , but the riders had to ride both bikes.

in the end they said there wasn’t much difference between the two. one was steel (duster?), the other titanium.

it would be interesting to do a similar tet with Ragley blue pig, mmmbop and the Ti frame. would make a for an innovative magazine article had i not just reminded some of you of the earlier one.

but having said that. i think there is more of a difference between steel and alu than there is between alu and steel.

my steel framed bikes give a comfier ride than i remember my old alu ones giving.

oh, and it’s SIMILAR.

but having said that. i think there is more of a difference between steel and alu than there is between alu and steel

Do you mean steel v alu and ti v steel?

I find a lot of difference between aluminium and carbon.

But then I also noticed a lot of difference between my aluminium Marin Palisades Trail (bone shatteringly harsh) and my aluminium Merlin Malt 2 (little bit of compliance).

The carbon 456 is both stiffer torsionally and more compliant vertically than both aluminium bikes.

my hummer is different to my ti456.
my ti456 rides like the wind. it’s beautiful to ride long and hard.
the hummer is shorter, higher and more ‘direct’.

the ti456 is ‘sublime’.

my old kobe ti is more resilient, harder to get it right, more industrial.

i could wax lyrical all night about the beauty of each bikes character….

MASSIVE difference.

Can you tell the difference between a Toyota Auris and a BMW 330?

i seem to remember an article in a mag a few years back where they had two Charge frames with identical builds and paint jobs.

they let people go and ride them , but the riders had to ride both bikes.

in the end they said there wasn’t much difference between the two. one was steel (duster?), the other titanium.

IIRC it was in Dirt, and one had a bolt up seat clamp, the other a QR one. They actualy told riders one was differet, but gave a different reason each time, some riders were told oen was stiffer, others vice versa, different geometry etc. Soem riders were told they were different but not given a ‘clue’. They actualy found people thought the QR bike was more gnarr, so there you have it, QR seat releases make a bike better than titanium!

well i noticed when i changed the travel on my Bontrager from the 63mm oil and elastomers and went to a 70mm englund air cartridge. The bike wasn’t quite as fast handling.

I have also noticed changing the travel on my Top Fuel from 100mm to 80mm, IMO it rides better with the shorter forks.

I can change the axle to crown on my forks by about 25mm, don’t know how many degrees that translates to but it’s notiecable through tight twisty stuff.

A 456 has very similiar geometry to a Soul, and honestly I wonder how anyone could fail to feel the difference. My Mmmbop and Druidh’s Ti are different sizes but otherwise the same and again, massively different. Scandal and Inbred, identical geometry, very different.

Down to the rider IMO. Some people just don’t have that much awareness, which is fair enough and probably quite good in that I could save a fortune if I couldn’t tell the difference between those frames.

I always think that there’s really so few variables in a bike frame that its quite amusing when you read some reviews. Reviewers must be super sensitive to tell some of the differences they talk about in write ups. Without controlling for other variables such as tyres, pressure etc etc.

I always think that there’s really so few variables in a bike frame

I can think of loads…

I’m on my 2nd Chumba hx1, the 2nd had everything transplanted from the first and the geometry is supposedly exactly the same but the frame itself is built differently – it’s like night and day tbh. The first was very stiff, the 2nd much more compliant.

Huge difference between by Boardman team, and my mate’s Kona 5-0. His Kona is an unstoppable tank – incredibly stiff and confident. Nightmare to pedal though.

i can 🙂

Anyone who can’t tell the difference between a Cove Handjob and a Charge Duster needs their arse tested.

Out of the ‘new school’ hardtails, I’ve owned a Cotic Soul, Dialled 853 Prince Albert and Chromag Stylus. The Cotic was a bit big for me (bought used) so maybe the long top tube didn’t help, but a combination of short (130mm….) fork, and short stem sucked on that bike. The Dialled felt much better and if I was in the UK I’d maybe still have it. The Chromag was totally awesome compared to the other two though. A short rear end and slack front end made for something that you could easily manual through whoops and the like, but was still super stable.