Looking at changing a Cham to an Argon FR, there’s obviously geometry changes between the frames ( only mm admittedly) not overly worried about “fit” but speaking generally what effect on handling will changes to

Chainstay length ( bit longer)
Top tube ( bit shorter)
Wheelbase ( bit shorter overall)

Have on the handling?

And what effect does nearly an inch longer in ref fork do to angles?

Depends if ‘a bit’ is 5mm or 15mm, but in general your weight could be more forward biased as it looks like a longer rear – shorter front geo so a hop or manual may not be as easy at first but with a shorter WB and top tube it’ll be fine and probably not much different, just a tweak in technique to get used to I expect.

1″ on the fork is just over a degree static / 1/2 a degree once you’re moving. It’ll also help put your weight backward again, a bit, not much tho.

Why would you want to swap one hardtail for another if you dont understand how the new one will ride?

After various thinking and experimenting along these lines, I came to the conclusion that tiny changes make unexpectedly big differences and sometimes big changes make unexpectedly small differences, and that thinking you can accurately judge a bike by reading its geo chart is basically mad.

Though I’m sure people will disagree, especially MBR journalists who can feel and interpret every thou of a difference just by looking at a website 😉

Davidtayleforth, hence the question…Northwind, I think your probably right TBH, maybe academic anyway, Argon FR doesn’t appear on the price list, and new AM is too slack. Back to the drawing board

thinking you can accurately judge a bike by reading its geo chart is basically mad

Some truth in that, definately. Dimensions commonly listed get fussed over but other dimensions never seem to be measured or bothered about.

I think you can tell a fair bit from numbers but you need all of them to do so and you’re right that the expected feel and the actual feel can be a way off / you may react to the change differently than expected. The more stuff you try out the more accurate you can get when it comes to your own bikes. Just got to detatch from wanting x measuremenrt here and y there and look at the overall balance, as far as is possible.

Argon FR doesn’t appear on the price list, and new AM is too slack.

The Argon AM is an evolution of the Argon FR and I imagine that you could get an FR built relatively easily. There is also one for sale on eBAy at the moment which is brand new. I think it’s being sold by Moonglu in Leeds and is listed as a full bike or frame and fork. It’s not cheap, but it’s got a very funky camo paint job and is as I said, brand new.

Bear in mind that the geometry of the AM is based around a fork with an axle to crown of 545mm; that’s a Lyrik, Fox 36 or BOS Devile fork and is pretty long. As has been pointed out, running a 34mm 150mm travel Fox or similar Revelation will knock one degree off the head and lower the BB by maybe 3mm.

Having owned a Ragley Ti hardtail, which had geometry very much like the Argon AM’s, I would vouch for it 100% (I’ve been thinking about getting an AM myself). If you’re in the market for a hardtail like the Argon AM, then I think you’ll really like the way it handles. If it’s too slack, then maybe the AM would be overbuilt for your prefered riding.

thinking you can accurately judge a bike by reading its geo chart is basically mad

I’m not so sure on that point; I think you can get a good feel for it if you’ve ridden enough bikes and paid enough attention to their numbers and what you’re feeling when riding them.

Thanks GT72, more useful info than I got from one of the Nicolai dealers I spoke with!!

I think a test ride is what I need, the general XC er in me is slightly scared off by the 65 degree head angle on the AM, in lots of ways the FR is my perfect bike, so I’m hoping there’s one in stock somewhere or it’s a custom build, which may be too pricey, thanks for the EBay heads up, I’ll check it out

Edit, ah, it’s a large, it’s a med I’m after

You will be lucky to get a test ride I think but it’s not out of the question. Have you tried contacting Momentum? They are the UK distributor. Simon is the guy to speak to. He’s best reached by email: simon@nicolai-uk.com

The FR is a beast of a bike as would the AM be. I’ve tested an Argon FR on a long ride and it’s a hoot but it is very stiff and unforgiving. The closest I’ve experiecned to something that stiff is the Cotic BFe and even then the Cotic was still more forgiving.

But it’s a great bike; the medium FR was quite short for a meidum whereas the medium AM is now as long in the TT as a large FR. I am just shy of 6ft tall and if I had ended up with an FR then I would have bought a medium not a large but sizing and fit is a very personal thing and I would not have intended the FR for anything other than two to three hour blasts so I wouldn’t have needed/wanted anything larger.

I wouldn’t let the slack head angle put you off the bike though. To go back to your original question as to what effects do geometry changes have, the answer is, on their own, very little, but taken together, quite a bit.

They key, at least in my opinion, is that geometry is best evaluated overall; a slack head angle needs to be evaluated in conjunction with the BB height, chainstay length, wheel base etc.

The Argon AM, in medium, is very like my tailored Helius AM in terms of geometry. I suspect that the Argon AM will be happiest at speed, will handle steep technical terrain with a relaxed and confident manner; you’ll need to be willing to weight the front of the bike appropriately to get it to bite, but doing this will be rewarded with plenty of grip and no fear of the front of the bike tucking under. The Argon FR was less ‘aggressive’ in this sense and wanted you to stay much more central; it’s a more neutral position than the AM would ask of you I think.

But running a 140mm fork (which is as much as I would put onto any hardtail) with an axle to crown of say 520mm, is going to knock about 1.5 degrees off the HA, making is more like 66.5 degrees rather than 65 it states. I think that would be indiscernable from an Argon FR. Also, sticking a 50mm stem on it and running a slightly wider bar would give you a good blend of balance at speed with control and cornering/manouverability.

Where are you based and which dealer were you in touch with? I think the best dealer you could contact right now is either Moonglu or 18Bikes; I can’t remember who it was, but in conversation with them, one of them said that they rode an Argon FR as their ideal all day do it all bike so they should have good insight for you.