So, I’ve got a new job. Yay!

Handed in my notice (1 month) in writing as per contract and said that I wanted to use the remainder of my outstanding leave (4.5 days) in the last week of my employment. My employer has refused, saying that they’re too busy.

While they (verbally) said that they will pay me the 4.5 days, they’ve not confirmed this in writing or said how much this will be.

So, given that they’ve sent nothing in writing where to I stand?
Are they allowed to refuse to allow me to take the leave even if they promise to pay me the days instead?

The leave is in your contact and you are entitled to take it. They cannot refuse the leave if is there for you to take. It would be just as if they refused you holiday when you weren’t leaving.

While they (verbally) said that they will pay me the 4.5 days, they’ve not confirmed this in writing or said how much this will be.

Depending on how leave usually works (ie if you have to ask permission etc) then they’re probably ok to refuse it, but they legally have to pay you for it.

The leave is in your contact and you are entitled to take it.

There may be wording about paying for outstanding leave instead of allowing it to be taken as well.

quite normal for employer to refuse leave but pay you for the days

Happened to me too but they have to pay you for the days.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

Don’t listen to us.. Check here

and they expect anything useful from you in the last week?

They may well want to pay you for the outstanding leave, but if you were offering to go early using the leave then in most cases it would make sense for them to agree.
I wouldn’t want a someone that was going to a new job hanging around like a bad smell, working their leave under duress.

edit: More succinctly put by jam bo

Yep normal clause as they need you to finish the notice then you get paid out for it.

Depending on how leave usually works (ie if you have to ask permission etc) then they’re probably ok to refuse it, but they legally have to pay you for it.

This. You should receive 4.5 x 365ths of your annual salary in lieu in your final pay packet.

This. You should receive 4.5 x 365ths of your annual salary in lieu in your final pay packet.

Depends how you are paid, but this is less appealing than taking the days – as most of us don’t work 365 days per year.

Just chuck a sicky

Depends how you are paid, but this is less appealing than taking the days – as most of us don’t work 365 days per year

I didn’t say it was appealing – it’s just the way HR depts tend to deal with these things. Some (more generous) employers will actually do a ‘working days’ calculation but the general rule is as quoted.

Sadly, in my previous job, I sometimes had the pleasure of delivering this wonderful news to people. Senior management never quite understood how pointless it was making an already demotivated employee work out their notice. Odd thing was, if you were ‘client facing’ or managerial you generally had a 3 month notice period and would be instantly put on gardening leave the moment you resigned.

Nobby – I wasn’t criticising, just pointing out the relative inequality of it compared to taking the days. I remember being on the receiving end of one of these calculations once and thinking BASTARD!

It would be just as if they refused you holiday when you weren’t leaving.

Employers can refuse holiday – asking for a date doesn’t guarantee it. The employer only needs to give the required days off over a year so if it doesn’t fit with their plans they can say no.

I think in three weeks you might find you have a bit of flu.

Yes, but as you say, they have to allow you to take it as some point during the year, even if it isn’t on a specific date. If you are leaving the next day, that time isn’t there as your contract has ended.

S’ok Geoff – as I said, I’ve had to hand ’em out and I thought BASTARDS too!

Take them. What are they going to do, sack you? 😈

I was in this situation once. I just didn’t turn in for the last week. I didn’t tell them, they didn’t call men I got paid the full month and of course the new job was already in the bag.

Is that really how they calculate it if you have 4.5 days of Annual Leave to take?

For sake of argument, say you get paid £20k/annum. On the above basis 4.5 days = £247

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/holiday-pay-the-basics This suggests that for fixed contract workers:

A week’s holiday pay equals how much a worker gets for a week’s work

So, the calculation for a normal 9-5er on 5 day week should be 20k / 52 weeks = £384 / week.

Then £384 * (4.5 /5) = £345.

Or am I interpreting that incorrectly?

it’s usually calculated on working days = 261 per year (365 days – 104 to allow for weekends)

20000 / (365 – 104) = £76.62 per day, or £383.14 per week

Yes, but as you say, they have to allow you to take it as some point during the year, even if it isn’t on a specific date. If you are leaving the next day, that time isn’t there as your contract has ended.

Agreed, but then they pay you in lieu of the holiday. I don’t think handing in your notice gives you a right to demand holiday, although the employer has little to gain by making you work…

Less than that actually, 365-weekends-statutory holidays means i thing 250 working days/year.

Agreed it should be on working days.
I once had the same argument where an employer tried to divide by 365 days. I explained that my salary was for me to provide a certain number of days of work each year, and that if I was going to work additional days the calculation was salary/those days. In addition, working days should also take into account holidays (i.e. it should be net of holiday days as well). They agreed but it did make me wonder how many previous leavers had accepted the “divide by 365” argument…..

So, those paying 4.5/365 are illegal or just morally a bit rubbish?

So, those paying 4.5/365 are illegal or just morally a bit rubbish?

Generally speaking, just morally rubbish.

In the last twenty years or so employment contracts in the UK have become vague regarding working days/hours etc. As an example, the standard for our normal office based staff is along the lines of “a standard 35 hours per week or as required in special circumstances” and will also state “Normal office hours are Monday to Friday, 9am to 5pm, with 1 hour for lunch, or as required in special circumstances”.

It’s a kind of catch all so, for instance, if there are adverse weather conditions or travel issues these can be changed to the employee’s benefit or, more likely, workloads/time pressures mean that the employer can insist on extra from their staff.

Not quite down there with zero hours but it does give the employer the whip hand, so to speak.

OP quite normal I think. They pay you for the unused days but they can ask you to work the full month without leave, remember they have to grant/approve you holiday and in this case they are refusing your application for a week off.

Should have booked the holiday in first.
I booked a 3 week holiday, and shortly after handed in my 1 month’s notice 🙂

Thanks all.
Lots to think about, looks like I’m going to have to suck up the lack of leave and make sure I know how they’re calculating day rates.

I feel you pain….

I’m currently 5 weeks into my 3 month notice.
IT
IS
DOING
MY
NUTT
IN!!!!!

The only other thing to remember is not to burn any bridges – ever!

The 4.5/365 calculation is wrong. If they use that one, then they are assuming that you work weekends. Your leave days are used to take days off during the working week (assuming that this is Mon-Fri for you). You don’t need to take leave off for the weekend (well not at my place at least!)

Therefore the actual calculation is 4.5/(365-52*2-8) since there are also 8 public holidays in the UK (note different public holidays for Scotland and NI).

In our place I know exactly how much a day is worth since I can pay for extra days leave up to a maximum. The difficult bit is working out how many days you should have at the end of the period when you leave.

OP are they offering to reimburse you for the 4.5days and confirmed this in writing?

If so then I’d be happy with that and ask my new employer if they’d allow a few days extra (to sort out stuff/etc) – basically have a break inbetween roles.

You need to preserve good relations for the sake of references but if your employer says ‘yeah sure we’ll pay you’ or no- you lose it. Or equally woolly. I’d press them and counter with ‘your busy but look at it from my perspective my heart wont be in the role and I might not be giving 100% commitment’.

are they offering to reimburse you for the 4.5days and confirmed this in writing?

While they (verbally) said that they will pay me the 4.5 days, they’ve not confirmed this in writing

Then the OP’s not getting paid for them in that case.

Yes, they verbally offered to reimburse me for the outstanding leave but they’ve not said at what rate nor confirmed in writing yet.

Presumably if they don’t/won’t confirm in writing my notice letter stands?

This may help:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/work_e/work_time_off_work_e/holidays_and_holiday_pay.htm#h_leaving_your_job