Viewing 31 posts - 1 through 31 (of 31 total)
  • Calling Hampshire/Surrey Border MOD land users
  • openmtbkie
    Free Member

    Survey Time – Do you ride on the military lands?

    TAG are seeking some background information from the MTB community that rides on the military lands. If you ride in the following places, we would like to hear from you:-

    Minley Manor & Yateley Heath
    Pystock and Fleet Pond surrounds.
    Long Valley
    Caesars Camp and Beacon Hill
    Ash Ranges
    Tunnel Hill
    Porridge Pot & Windmill Hill
    Bagshot Heath north and south
    Barrossa Common
    Hankley Common
    Longmoor Ranges
    The survey can be found here:-

    TAG Mountain Bike Survey

    We would really appreciate your responses. No one is compelled to give their name, email address etc, but we may need to follow up with some respondents to clarify some of the answers, so an email address and permission to contact you would be just perfect. It kind of goes without saying that we will not be sharing your personal details with anyone else…but that information will remain confidential.

    The survey should not take too long – thanks in advance for your time. It is appreciated and will be useful in our ongoing discussions with the landowner.

    Survey Time – Do you ride on the military lands?

    Simwit
    Full Member

    I’ve done it but it might be worth you saying what it is you intend to do with the information you collate.

    bigperm
    Free Member

    Done.

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    openmtbkie
    Free Member

    Fair point, as it didn’t occur to me that people might not know the history of TAG

    What is TAG?

    Data will be used in ongoing discussions with DIO about improving access, as there’s a lot of supposition without much real data.

    Yak
    Full Member

    Done.
    I like the idea of an app that tells you whether the land is in use or not. Is this actually viable though? Would the MOD give up that info?

    theotherjonv
    Full Member
    Yak
    Full Member

    Good stuff. That would be great.

    nedrapier
    Full Member

    done. thanks.

    Ewan
    Free Member

    Done

    allthepies
    Free Member

    Done.

    dovebiker
    Full Member

    Survey completed – what’s more worrying is that MOD’s/DIO’s insistence on closing all car-parking adjacent to the training ground, thus restricting public access in the interests of conservation and yet motorbikes appear to have unfettered access as they know with certainty the area isn’t patrolled outside of office hours. Landmarc rangers also appear to be doing a good job of mucking about in 4x4s, needlessly driving down trails creating far more damage than any MTB.

    allthepies
    Free Member

    The conservation angle is just an excuse, they just don’t want people on the land.

    IMO.

    kcshaple
    Free Member

    Done

    Simwit
    Full Member

    I’m inclined to agree with allthepies unfortunately.

    uselesshippy
    Free Member

    You’ve got to love the irony. You can’t ride a bicycle around here because of the environment, but a huge tank is fine…

    natrix
    Free Member

    I like the idea of an app that tells you whether the land is in use or not.

    This sort of thing has been suggested in the past but the MOD have said that it would compromise security…………..

    natrix
    Free Member

    closing all car-parking adjacent to the training ground,

    Not only that but in existing car parks they have started to clamp down on access. For example, there is a large car park for the Hawley Sailing Club. Dog walkers who have used this car park to access Hawley Woods have had notices from the MOD left on their cars saying that they are not allowed to park there…….

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    This sort of thing has been suggested in the past but the MODindividuals within the MOD have said that it would compromise security…………..

    FTFY

    But as the Salisbury Plain situation shows, it’s not policy.

    openmtbkie
    Free Member

    policy

    For the record – JSP 362:

    05105. The MOD is committed to taking a positive role in Britain’s wider socio-economic environment, and in the community. Where possible, MOD will seek to make our land available for public enjoyment, particularly our rural estate.

    05106. The Defence Estate has a wide range of features of interest including some of the most stunning landscapes in the United Kingdom, from wild uplands to lowland marshes. The land within our management/ownership covers over 240,000 hectares (around 1% of the UK) and is a significant resource for public access, recreation and sporting use.

    05107. MOD has a declared presumption in favour of safe public enjoyment of its estate. However, it must be remembered that the rural estate is held for military training purposes and therefore such access has to be compatible with operational and military training issues, public safety, security, conservation and the interests of tenants.

    05121. It is MOD policy that land will not be dedicated as ‘access land’ under section 16 of the CROW Act as such dedication is in perpetuity and therefore not compatible with the potential future requirements of military training. Provision for open access by whatever means (foot, cycle, horseback) should be formalised, in agreement with the establishment under the byelaws or other appropriate means which are compatible with the primacy of military training and the needs of public safety, security, conservation and the interests of tenants.

    05115. The defence estate currently has a number of areas available for open access on foot. However, access on horseback and bicycle is generally restricted to existing routes that permit such access. Exceptions include the Dartmoor Commons Act (1985) which permits open access on horseback and on foot when access is permitted. EAs and Environmental Advisers can provide up to date information on such examples.

    05116. The CROW Act 2000, Part I introduces a rights of open access on foot to certain areas of England and Wales including parts of the Defence Estate. Land covered by existing MOD byelaws will be excepted from the provisions of the Act and there are procedures to place restrictions upon non-byelawed land.

    05142. The Defence Estate is widely used for recreational purposes. Large-scale events such as motor rallies and marathons and orienteering events take place at a number of sites and events are also held on the estate promoting the role of the Services. These include the recent Army 2002 held on Salisbury Plain, as well as events at RAF, RN and DLO sites. Routine use of sports facilities by local communities is widespread. Recreational use of the estate is also important for service personnel. The estate therefore plays an important role in the recreational activities of both service and civilian personnel.

    05148. The MOD is committed to keeping its byelaws under review so that access opportunities are not restricted unnecessarily. Chapter 1, JSP 403 outlines the importance of byelaws with respect to public access and measures that may be taken. Relevant policy on procedures relating to byelaws is provided in Chapter 12 of this JSP and Chapter 19 of the Defence Estates Guide.

    I’ll let you all make up your own mind as to whether MOD/DIO are maintaining the spirit of the above policies in their treatment of access to the AML areas.

    cinnamon_girl
    Full Member

    They provide that info for some areas, eg: Salisbury Plain.

    Just to add that this Summer Imber Church will only be open for 3 days instead of the usual 14 days. The MOD claim that the reason for this is due to visitors wandering into buildings that have no public access and which can be dangerous.

    Bearing in mind that Imber Church can attract in excess of 1,500 visitors on one day coupled with the Imber bus that will be running on Bank Holiday Saturday, there could potentially be even more visitors crammed into 3 days. Us volunteers will be kept extremely busy!

    The MOD are supposed to open Imber up to a maximum of 40 days each year but each year this number reduces considerably. In fact this year the annual St Giles service will not take place.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Look, i don’t want to slam the MOD / DIO either – i was on TAG for a few years, know what goes on, know some of the ‘personalities’ involved and I’m not going to do anything to compromise the excellent progress TAG have been making.

    These are training areas, for training soldiers on, first and foremost. When they want the land, we should make way, and with the well publicised increasing demands for space as soldiers come back from BAOR, etc., then if they need it or Salisbury more often then we have to make way more often.

    But where they aren’t using it, or in situations where it can be used both for training and recreation concurrently, we have to try to find give and take.

    dovebiker
    Full Member

    I don’t think anyone is denying that the military need to do their training, but given the size of their training estate and the amount of time they actually spend training there, I expect to amounts to no more than 5%, so effectively the land is ‘free’ for 95% of the time and given that it is publically owned and funded, then why shouldn’t it be available? Over the years just through the act of riding responsibly (no digging)I had a lovely network of trails – in the last few years they’ve been destroyed by motorbikes, both MOD-approved events and illegal riding – I no longer enjoy riding foot-deep, watery ditches. Out walking the dogs this morning to find a footpath churned-up by a 4×4 – this can only have been a Landmarc or MOD vehicle.

    tootallpaul
    Full Member

    Survey completed.

    🙂

    Happy to help if needed as well.

    natrix
    Free Member

    Interesting article on access in MOD magazine ‘Sanctuary’ on page 50 written by James Nevitt (Senior Access and Recreation Team Defence Infrastructure Organisation) here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/469631/15-07-275_Sanctuary_Magazine__FINAL_lowres_.pdf

    To quote:

    DIO Access and Recreation Team (ART) adopted the mantra of certainty,
    clarity and consistency.
    Certainty
    ensures public access and recreation is recognised as an integral part of MOD estate management. Open access and linear routes must be managed, maintained and made available when possible, to fulfil policy. The public need to be certain where and when access is allowed, but equally the military need to be aware of where and when the public are likely to be on the estate.
    Clarity
    refers to information provision. It must be clear to any visitor where access is acceptable.
    Consistency
    recognises that people enjoy access across our estate and not just on one site. We need to ensure that access delivery and information is as consistent as possible across the whole of our UK estate.

    ShanAndy
    Full Member

    Do you want word on the survey spread via FB etc?

    openmtbkie
    Free Member

    Please do, the more the merrier 8)

    Sui
    Free Member

    cinnamon_girl – Member
    They provide that info for some areas, eg: Salisbury Plain.
    Just to add that this Summer Imber Church will only be open for 3 days instead of the usual 14 days. The MOD claim that the reason for this is due to visitors wandering into buildings that have no public access and which can be dangerous.

    Bearing in mind that Imber Church can attract in excess of 1,500 visitors on one day coupled with the Imber bus that will be running on Bank Holiday Saturday, there could potentially be even more visitors crammed into 3 days. Us volunteers will be kept extremely busy!

    The MOD are supposed to open Imber up to a maximum of 40 days each year but each year this number reduces considerably. In fact this year the annual St Giles service will not take place

    I never knew they opened it for visitors. I’ve got fond memories of training at IMber (including the coldest 3 nights holed up in one of the buildings trying to make a f’off fire to keep warm), but i wouldn’t want to be strolling around as a civvie with the amount of pyro that gets left around.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I think that’s why they don’t want us wandering into buildings…….

    I never went to Imber but did some FIBUA with the cadets / OTC back in my younger days. Great fun with T’flashes and blanks but I can imagine utterly terrifying IRL.

    cinnamon_girl
    Full Member

    I never knew they opened it for visitors. I’ve got fond memories of training at IMber (including the coldest 3 nights holed up in one of the buildings trying to make a f’off fire to keep warm), but i wouldn’t want to be strolling around as a civvie with the amount of pyro that gets left around.

    It can get freezing cold in that valley! Website linky:

    http://www.imberchurch.org.uk/

    Be warned that the church has no heating, gas, electricity or running water. Hot and cold refreshments are available, it’s popular with cyclists, mx’ers, motorbikerists, dog walkerists. Local honey also available and it’s delicious on porridge.

    openmtbkie
    Free Member

    Delicate bump for the weekend crowd.

    Over 400 responses already, so starting to form a good picture from some of the data

    openmtbkie
    Free Member

    Update on this – here’s the results

    TAG MTB Survey – The Results

Viewing 31 posts - 1 through 31 (of 31 total)

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