I wonder if any riders who use Haldon or have visited Haldon have ridden the pump track and skills area?

I was mega excited to have these built on my doorstep, but I was seriously disappointed when I rode them.

I’m fully prepared to admit that I am crap and might be doing something wrong, but I’ve watched loads of other riders there and have yet to see anyone really ride the pump track well (without pedalling) or ride the berms/jumps in the skills area with any success.

The pump track I think was built with the gaps between the hillocks too small, it’s ridable and pumpable on a BMX but on a mountain bike as you pump off the top of one hill your front wheel is climbing the next hill before the back wheel has crested the first hill, which kills your energy. This is a shame and ultimately a waste of money on the FC’s part. You can of course pedal around it, but this isn’t the point of a pump track.

I would aim the same criticism at the skills area. The doubles are way too close together and I have yet too see anyone but the most skilled riders get any air off them, the run in is too short to build any speed and again this is a waste of time.

The rock drops also suffer from having way too short a run in slope, the largest drop off requires a bunny hop to clear, when if there was a decent run in, it would be much more satisfying.

The berms again it is difficult to gain any speed and learn what a berm is for, as the run in is too short.

My worry is that these areas just going to fall into disuse and may well misguidedly convince those in charge that pump tracks and skills areas are not what people want, when in fact they are what people want, if they work as intended.

I’m not trying to get at the FC, I love the red run and think that given the lack of space and landowner issues we have they have done a great job. I just think whoever built the pump track and skills area needs to do a rethink/rebuild as they are rubbish.

Any thoughts? Am I really doing it wrong, can anyone else ride those features or are they actually just crap..

How do the dimensions compare to those recommended in Pump Track Nation?

I tend to agree with you, I use and love Haldon a lot but the skills area is dire…

BUT

when the kiddies are on it with 24inch wheeled or smaller bikes they seem to be ok, so I wonder if it was intentionally built around young’uns rather than adults?

If that is the case then fair play, if not then it is a big let down.

Haven’t got pump track nation, it would be good to know. But look these tracks in this vid, much bigger more spaced out features..
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAkvi7FR094&feature=player_embedded[/video]

or lee quarry
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODR7tQY73o&playnext=1&list=PLF356C4B51EE5A582[/video]

when the kiddies are on it with 24inch wheeled or smaller bikes they seem to be ok, so I wonder if it was intentionally built around young’uns rather than adults?

Yeah I’ve seen that, but they only do ok, lots of young uns are pretty awesome riders, I haven’t seen anything awesome at haldon skills or pump track.. (For example have you been to the pines/bomb hole at woodbury? 12 year old kids getting massive air on bmx and mtb)

I had a long chat with a ranger who seems to be the most MTB oriented and he agreed it was crap, and it wasn’t what they had envisaged.

I’m really relieved to hear that, I thought it was just me being crap. At least now I know it’s not entirely my fault 🙂

I know what you mean about awesomely talented kids, but i think by its very nature a ‘skills area’ is for people who aren’t yet at that level? they have to start somewhere after all, the trails at woodbury have been getting bigger and better year on year for the last decade as the builders have improved, but now they are prohibitive for newcomers.

but

and it wasn’t what they had envisaged.

that is the most telling bit, if it isn’t what they envisaged then there is a problem as they haven’t got what they expected either, who’s to blame?

the builders for building it wrong?
the comittee’s for not understanding the requirements?
the people that communicated the requirements to the builders?

either way it’s sad because like you say, us locals are disappointed, the rangers are disappointed, and there is a real risk of a decision maker higher up the food chain seeing it as a failure and a waste of money for all the wrong reasons.

I’m really relieved to hear that, I thought it was just me being crap. At least now I know it’s not entirely my fault

Well it is conceivable that we are both crap, but the Ranger told me he thought it was crap too…

Anyway the ranger also said that we should have a moan to them so that they can do something about it so if you’ve ridden there and have an opinion here is the email address

haldon.rangers@forestry.gsi.gov.uk

a ‘skills area’ is for people who aren’t yet at that level?

I can see what you are saying but it should also be for honing your skills. But what about the three levels of jumps on the doubles or the three levels of rock drops, but both features are just not really doable even for a beginner as you cannot get enough speed and the doubles are too close together. You see loads of kids on BSO’s rolling over everything, but that’s not the point is it.

nice one toys19, thanks. I’ll try and write them some positive criticism

I’m still a tad confused why pump tracks are so popular?

I struggle to see how it can ‘build trail riding skills’ ?

Enlighten me…

you knwo what toys19… I think I actually agree with you 100%, but I’m trying to weedle out a postive/viable excuse because I don’t want to be a downer on it all when so may put in so much effort.

You are right. it sucks 🙁

I’ll also try and put the above into more useful form and send an email.

the skills area usually seems pretty busy to me when the CP is busy too.
i agree that i would prefer a longer run into the doubles, but i imagine that there may be some safety aspect at play here? ie if you can commit enough to building the required speed in that short distance then you’re good to go, but if can’t, at least you’ll be safe ( there’s then not much chance of launching yourself into orbit ). this last is just my speculation however.
i can get around the inner pump track without pedalling, just!

the thing about haldon is that it’s a bu99er’s muddle of compromise in many different ways. we may not always like what they spend their money on up there ( and it galls me that they’ve patched up the blue run where holes were appearing, but haven’t repaired any of the damage to the red where they’ve had harvesting machinery go through ), but so long as they keep putting stuff in, and leave the cheeky stuff alone, it all kinda works.

@xiphon

I think it’s for people who like jumps/berms (me).

1) teach you about using trail features to create speed (pumping)
2) how to deal with speed ie you need to not brake entering a corner or not brake approaching jumps so that you maintain speed
3) Easy repetition of the same features so that you can go faster/bigger each time
4) teach you to think ahead (not just jump/land each feature in isolation) as you need to be set up and thinking of the next jump/berm, linking things up
5) fun

Combine all these things means on fast twisty jumpy bermy stuff you’ll be better able to go faster with more skill and look cooler and pull more birds. Better than smoking as a means to make knickers drop.

EDIT: Anyway does there need to be a reason other than fun, there is no necessity for anything in MTB other than fun, look at those vids I posted, don’t they look brill??

xiphon – In a nutshell, they help to teach you how to maintain momentum.

I know they don’t have any typical natural trail obstacles on them but if you’ve ever ridden them (or BMX) well then you really begin to appreciate just how speed you can carry and how much effort gets wasted just cranking back up to speed. Its the same kind of thing you get from riding SS offroad a bit, you learn to keep rolling, and ‘use’ the terrain to keep and gain speed.

Beyond that, they’re not much good for anything, but then falling off wooden ladder bridges from high up in the trees isn’t much good for normal trails until you realise it does teach you about weight balance, and judging speed and absorbing impacts… etc.

Del, the blue run repairs were done by the builders at their own cost – the trail was built with a 6month retention and the lower sections hadn’t been done to spec by the builder’s subcontractors (they’d put the matting in the wrong place in the stack so the top just scuffed off), so no extra cost to the FC.

It’s still a pain on the red though, presumably that’ll get done later (we can but hope)

Del – Member
the skills area usually seems pretty busy to me when the CP is busy too.

I agree, with kids rolling around and not really learning anything much other than how to roll over stuff

i agree that i would prefer a longer run into the doubles, but i imagine that there may be some safety aspect at play here? ie if you can commit enough to building the required speed in that short distance then you’re good to go, but if can’t, at least you’ll be safe ( there’s then not much chance of launching yourself into orbit ). this last is just my speculation however.

I thought this too, but I think if you want to learn to jump you need an easy jump, the smallest double is impossible to get air over as you need to be going flat out and then pull up like buggery, its just doesn’t have any go or flow. For me that makes it more dangerous. (unless the safety aspect was to make it look like a skills area to learn how to jump but to actually make it nigh on impossible to jump unless you already had pretty advanced skills/fitness/kit)

i can get around the inner pump track without pedalling, just!

Me too, just..

i’ve ridden these trails and would agree with the pump track thoughs, I found it too difficult to get back up the slope. I think someone whose good at pump tracks could probably make it, but that’s me oot.

The skills area, I think the thoughts on the jumps are accurate. I managed to clear the full set, but I’m pretty good at hucking, and i was really caning it (I hipped the run in ‘ramp’ from the run in round the corner to give me the speed, even that didn’t work very well). The drops are fine though, I’m not sure of the need to bunnyhop, just unweight the front and drop both wheels together. Speed isn’t really an issue there, I can do it at walking pace.

So yeah, a bit rubbish. But pumptracks almost always are, for those who aren’t really good at pumping. Ive managed 3 laps of one once, but only with my sus locked out

Been to Haldon quite a few times. Never ridden either the pump track or the skills area. Doesn’t look fantastic though.

The times that I’ve visited Haldon the pump track and skills area has been very busy.. usually with little people aged around 10 and under I would guess..

I had assumed that it was purpose built for tinys.. It’s a very small area.. and I would probably be a little upset if I was up there with my little ones (under 5s) letting them have a go on something rad and an overweight IT manager/Mamil/ATGNI wobbled past sweating and shreiking..

The centre is very family orientated.. and was always a family destination long before any MTB trails were installed.. the trails are all pretty tame..
I’ve said before on Haldon threads that it’s a crying shame that the FC couldn’t have designed the centre with more advanced adult riders in mind.. there’s not much provision for this demographic and considering the stuff that was closed down to allow for the development it seems a little unfair on those not wishing to venture off-piste..

Last time I ranted about it on here it was pointed out me that the centre is an ongoing development and there is more stuff in the pipeline.. perhaps some of our concerns could be raised with the relevant people..

my worry is whether the development will actually continue in the current political climate..

Thanks for the info.

Do you think they’ve cropped up only due to the rise in popularity of smooth trail centres?

I’ve used the one at Lee Quarry, but tbh, got bored very quickly after about 3 laps.

Maybe I don’t fall into the target audience?

toys19 – that first bit looks a laugh, but the second one was pretty boring tbh.

Yunki after my chat with the ranger he said it was supposed to be a proper pump track and skills area so I think you would be right to make that assumption based on what you see, but apparently that isn’t what the actual intention was.
So could I ask if you have ridden it and thought it wasn’t any good for you and what you want out of it then could you email the ranger on the address above. It would be good to create some pressure to either make the existing one better, or leave it for the kids and do some stuff for the big boys.

xiphon –

Do you think they’ve cropped up only due to the rise in popularity of smooth trail centres?

yes and no…

I think pump tracks have sprung up at trail centres due to their (TCs) rise in popularity, I don’t think smooth has anything to do with it, before pump-tracks started appearing we just used the local BMX tracks for that kind of stuff and I did, and still do ride the natural stuff at Haldon more than the trail centre stuff. We were riding it a decade ago, we’re still riding it now, we tend to use the red trail as either a warm up or a means of getting to another part of the forest.

and yeah, they can be boring, it depends if you want or need to learn that skill. If you’re already pretty adept at carrying your speed then they can get dull very quickly unless you’re riding them with a specific goal in mind, ie X laps, or to nail one particular section you have issues with 🙂

xiphon
This vid shows you how to pump on the pump track and then using those skills on the trail. Appeals to me… 😀

here click you should

I rode there for the first time this weekend, the trails are great, I took my (trusting) friend’s 18month old round the blue in a trailer which was tricky, it’s quite narrow..

the pump track is a bit rubbish yes, I could just about pump round the smaller track but not with much speed and needed pedal strokes on the big one.

Otherwise it’s a great area, I would say that the blue, red and black bits of trail are all of a very similar standard too, the black bit could do with some more rocky droppy bits I think..

[edit] I love a good pump track, it’s nice to have a skill you can work on and feel yourself improve on, especially one where if you get it wrong you aren’t going to pan your face in! and pumping on real trails feels good! to me anyway..

Otherwise it’s a great area, I would say that the blue, red and black bits of trail are all of a very similar standard too, the black bit could do with some more rocky droppy bits I think..

I don’t think anyone disagrees with this.

On the original post, if the pump track was not on a slope it would be a lot more accessible to all..

I know how to ride a pump track…. don’t need a video to show me 😆

If anything, I used skills learnt by riding and transfered them to the pump track – not the other way round.

I am planning on getting one of these built in Southampton Sports Centre. The trails will probably be designed by Ian Warby (Aston Hill and Roegate) but any examples of good/bad skills areas near you are welcome. Please explain what makes them good / bad with details like the OP

I feel sure that the person who designed/built the Haldon one is someone you should avoid. I’ve been looking at lee likes bikes all afternoon and the pump tracks he advocates look ruddy awesome. So I’ve ordered the ebook, and I’m going to measure up Haldon and compare it with Pump Track Nation to find out why Haldon is so crap..

edit: apparently it was phil saxena, which surprises me that it is so shit..

I had assumed that it was purpose built for tinys..

I thought that too. I’ve only been to Haldon once and had a quick go on it but the way it was designed and the fact that only kids seemed to be using it made me wonder if i was meant to be there or not. I kept expecting to see a sign saying under 14’s only or something similar!

We did the red, blue, and black runs when i went and it all seemed a bit tame to me but maybe thats because i’ve been spoilt by living right next to the Quantocks. I don’t think they could have made the black run any shorter if they’d tried 😆

That is why I selected Ian Warby. He has form and he also has just finished a couple of trails at Avon Tyrrell ready for this years Big Bike Bash (tickets on sale now). This lets me see that he can do it and understands what I want rather than ending up with a generic and poor trail area.

I would still like links to good sites you like. I have a copy of Pump Track Nation and looking on the web there are some pretyy sweet examples but mainly in the States.

I was under the impression it was designed for purely for kids,

overall, on one hand getting up to Haldon is convenient and is sometimes nice to get up there, on the other, its toppers busy seeming to cater purely for families. Would be nice if they dotted some LARGE posters in the carpark about trail edicate

Toys19 – i’d be interested to hear what you find out about the pump track dimensions, make sure you post back up when you find out.

As for Haldon, i think Del summed it up pretty well ‘a bu99ers muddle’. The Blue trail IMO is pitched about right but the Red and Black are laughable at best for their given grade. I’ve not heard of any more trails to go in at red/black grade and to be honest i kinda hope they dont. The hill has limited space already and any new stuff would mess up the existing…trails 😉

where’s this black trail?
is that the ‘freeride’ area that’s been closed for two years?

Did the contractors who built the stuff have a good track record?

Building these things is not as easy as it looks. Up here in Yorkshire (SingletrAction) we have built 3 now. Each one is a little bigger and a little better.

My point is that even with the research available on how to build them they still take some practice.

The first one at Lee Quarry is ok. But i presume the new one will be even better.

How about when you all write to the FC you suggest forming a trailbuilding group to reshape it? The materials must already be there.

Good luck 😉

The black trail is what used to be the very bottom section of the old red run. You drop left off the forestry track at the turning area where the big drop off used to be and wind down to the large berms before taking the fireroad back up to the turning area.

It feels short and like a red grade trail… Because it used to be part of one!

Question : How do trail centres grade their routes?

Is there an official guideline, or just a case of “Who thinks this is a black? Who thinks this is a red?”.

Do they judge it on distance, total ascent/descent, trail obstacles?

Who is the target audience for these routes?

I reckon the normalise them to the centre they are at not with other centres. So the easiest trail at that centre is the blue, the hardest the black and anything in the middle is red. Simples…

Except its all bollocks..

I’ve always thought Haldon red was more of a ‘purple’ trail, a bit worse than blue but not really red.

A few weeks ago I would have agreed with you ref the doubles/pump track…

However the last couple of weekends I’ve been up there when there have been some guys who actually know what they’re doing, and they can do the doubles (on full sus FR/DH bikes).

Getting advice from them and perservering I can just about do the doubles now, and last week managed to go round the pump track 3 times with no pedalling (before being to exhausted to continue)

Going up there tonight again as I’ve got a bit addicted to the feeling when it all comes together (which isn’t most of the time I must add..)

It was comforting when I could dismiss them as rubbish, however I’m glad I found out that I was the rubbish one 🙂