Green lanes in Yorkshire Dales National Park - your debt to the trail riders

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Green lanes in Yorkshire Dales National Park - your debt to the trail riders

97 posts & 40 voices | Started 3 months ago by nick3216 | Latest reply from Ollie B

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nick3216 - Member

After the NIMBY tosh talked on this thread about bikers I've just dug out my twenty year old TRF copy of map 98 - basically the best bit of the Dales.

Interesting what is and, more importantly isn't shown as a RoW, but the TRF had researched as having vehicular rights based on historic evidence.

Without the trail riders demonstrating that these higher rights existed these would still be footpaths only - in some cases not even that. It's quite a list.

Garsdale - Cowgill over Thorn Wold
Dowbiggin - Rotgill
Frostrow - Dentdale
Masongill - Kingsadle (the "Turbary Road" - note name).
High Dyke - Cotterdale corpse road.
Widdale Foot - Mid-Widdale
Selside - High Birwith
Horton-in-Ribblesdale over Moughton Scar to Wharfe
Feizor - Little Stainforth
Feizor - Stackhouse
Settle - Long Preston (the "Coach Road". "Coach" FFS).
Settle - Hellifield
Dub Cote - Dale Head
Litton - Dale Head (by Cow Close)
Halton Gill - Yockenthwaite over Horse Head Moor. (The "official' bridleway only went halfway back in '92).
Langcliffe - Malham by Gorbeck
West Burton - Melmerby
Malham Street Gate - Arncliffe by Clowder
Malham Street Gate - Arncliffe Cote
Malham Street Gate - Kilnsey
Arncliffe - Kettlewell (considered dubious even by the TRF who exercised voluntary restraint and did not ride).
Conistone Moor
Yarnbury - Kelber
Gordale - Threshfield
Carperby - Castle Bolton
Buckden - Stalling Busk (apparently built at a cost of £210 0s 0d according to my annotation).
Marsett - Common Allotments
Cotter Riggs - Cotter End

Surprising how many of these are now taken for granted as bridleways and considered classic Mountain Biking days out. It would only have taken a NIMBY objecting to the trail riders to object to the bicycles as well and these could all have been lost to us too.

Being selfish can backfire. That is another reason I favour a more open RoW model - even in my own back yard - rather than the restricted access model, which in my experience tends to be supported by the sort of NIMBY that I'm ashamed to share a hobby with.

Posted 3 months ago #
Trimix - Member

Good point.

Posted 3 months ago #
neilforrow - Member

here here. Trimix +1.

I wish more people understood this complex issue.

However, I give it T-10min for someone to come along and tell us all 'Moto-x' riders destroy the routes we love. Shame they cant see the bigger picture.

Posted 3 months ago #
ChrisE - Member

Nick,

think you've been misguided and you have been given a pack of fibs by someone. Take any one of your routes listed and tell me specifically what the TRF did, what DMMO application they put in, to turn it from a footpath to what is now a bridleway.

I know every route on that list and none of them as far as I can see. I have worked on the research on some of them too and so know the historical documents.

come on.......

C

Posted 3 months ago #
allthepies - Member

(the "Coach Road". "Coach" FFS).

Posted 3 months ago #
yossarian - Member

Can't comment on the dales. Can comment on where I now live. Off road motor bikes have utterly screwed a number of trails nearby. The riders have zero respect for other trail users and very little knowledge of how or when to avoid sensitive areas. Their riding has led to problems for cyclists as many people don't distinguish between pedal and petrol. They also seem to feel some kinship to mountain bikers. It is not mutual. Motor bikes have no place on the trails IMO.

Posted 3 months ago #
aP - Member

So motorbikes apparently created bridleways, which they're not allowed to use, in the late 80s which would be 20 years after the legal right for cyclists to use bridleways was passed in 1968?
Ok, or am I misunderstanding something somewhere?

Posted 3 months ago #
jota180 - Member

Motor bikes have no place on the trails IMO

You'll just have to live with it - tough

There's just as many people out there [if not more] that are of the opinion that push bikes have no place on the trails either.
They probably find it quite amusing to sit back and watch all the various [non walking] groups trying to have each other banned

Bit of a toss up today between the KTM or the Gasgas puddle jumper

Posted 3 months ago #
Trimix - Member

Im off to fire up the Montessa now for some snow action

Its a shame that even on this forum some people still cant share the trails.

Posted 3 months ago #
wwaswas - Member

Sharing means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose. A lot of mtbers have experienced the reults of mxers ripping trails to shreds - hence the reluctance to wholeheartedly welcome them.

Posted 3 months ago #
nick3216 - Member

So motorbikes apparently created bridleways

aP. when cyclists gained the right to use bridleways in 1968 the above list of trails werent given bridleway rights. The TRF researched historic rights on these and used these to claim vehicular access. Without this effort and use they might still be footpaths so even though we're allowed on bridle ways we couldn't use these. As well as paperwork you need evidence if use to have/keep them open.

Sharing means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose. A lot of mtbers have experienced the reults of mxers ripping trails to shreds - hence the reluctance to wholeheartedly welcome them.

wwaswas went back home for the first time in two years yesterday and can't believe the damage MTBs have now done on my old trails. Careful using that argument lest it is used against us.

ChrisE - you. known NIMBY. So, in the same vein, Not In My Thread. Off you trot elsewhere please. see how you like it.

Posted 3 months ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

to turn it from a footpath to what is now a bridleway.

Can't see the relevance - if TRF assisted in getting it from footpath into any higher classification, then they improved the lot of cyclists.

Also bearing in mind the work that they did on settling the rights to access on ORPA's/UCR's, the vast majority of which the cycling community had no knowledge of (as they were not on maps) and which the public authorities to this day challenge as having any "right" to access other than pedestrian.

Technically, of course, I'd point out that that you can't turn a footpath into a bridleway on the basis of historical evidence anyway - its been a bridleway all along, you just change how its officially recorded on the definitive map

Posted 3 months ago #
psling - Member

sharing means means leaving something in good condition for the next purpose.

I agree that this is a dangerous argument when used by MTBers; where I live (a very popular MTBing, horse riding and walking area) the amount of trail erosion as a result of MTBs has been very noticeable in the last 2 or 3 years (think 2ft wide singletrack now 12ft wide mud hole!). I am prepared to walk through these quagmires with my boots on but a lot of recreational walkers just look at the tyre tracks and proclaim MTBers to be the spawn of the devil who should not be allowed to ride off road (and, having said that, when the walkers get in their cars to drive home and get delayed by a cyclist they probably believe bikes shouldn't be on the road either!)

IMO 'sharing' means having tolerance towards other users even when it inconveniences yourself.

Posted 3 months ago #
ianv - Member

The riders have zero respect for other trail users and very little knowledge of how or when to avoid sensitive areas.

The same could be said for a lot of mountain bikers, the erosion/mess caused by groups of mountain bikers riding muddy trails can be pretty bad as well.

An old friend of the family used to be in the trf and he spent a lot of time researching old maps and fighting with the councils/dales national park over rights of way. As said, loads of stuff now marked bridleway would have previously been marked footpath if it wasn't for moto (and horse) organisations. Its a bit hypocritical to freeload off their research and then moan about them.

Posted 3 months ago #
wwaswas - Member

Everyone has to behave responsibly, that's a given.

I have no idea why an organisation for motorcycles would want to have footpaths made into bridle ways but fair play to them for doing so.

But I'm not sure to say 'look we did this for you, now you support open access for mx bikes' is a good way of presenting it as an altruistic act.

Posted 3 months ago #
B.A.Nana - Member

nick, can you tell me when (what year) that extensive list of footpaths^ got upgraded to bridleways, following extensive research and presumably lobbying by the trf. was there a mass reappraisal or case by case over many years.

Posted 3 months ago #
Andy R - Member

wwaswas - Member

But I'm not sure to say 'look we did this for you, now you support open access for mx bikes' is a good way of presenting it as an altruistic act.

They're not MX bikes btw. Enduro bikes, trials bikes, trail bikes - all capable of being road legal,unlike a MX bike, unless you go to the trouble of road registering it.
But then I'd be calling it an Enduro bike anyway.....

Posted 3 months ago #
wwaswas - Member

'off road capable motorcycle' then?

Mtbs are a just 'bicycles' to people who don't know/care about the nuances that riders choose to impose.

[edit] I'm walking away from this now. Nick can't have imagined we'd all suddenly see the light and allow motorised vehicles free rein over the landscape so it's either a troll or just slightly misguided attempt to publicise his access plan.

Posted 3 months ago #
psling - Member

wwaswas, nick didn't mention 'bridleway' til his last paragraph. TRF would have been seeking to confirm higher rights and, although I'm not familiar with those on his list, I'm guessing some will be byways or restricted byways. TRF along with Byways & Bridleways Trust and LARA will have benefited us as MTBers as a by-product

I find it interesting that 20 odd years ago motorised users were trying to get together as one voice to compare with the recognition the RA have in Parliament. Bit like cycling now with IMBA, CTC, BC, etc..

Posted 3 months ago #
fourbanger - Member

Thanks for that nick3216. Interesting to know. NIMBY's have gone a bit quiet for some reason...

Posted 3 months ago #
Dickyboy - Member

IMO 'sharing' means having tolerance towards other users even when it inconveniences yourself

+1

the argument that motorcycle riders cause damage is the thin end of the wedge, the ridgeway near here used to have restricted access from Nov to May to prevent damage through the winter months - but motor vehicles still got banned totally a few years later there are hundreds of other footpaths & bridleways for walkers, horse riders & cyclists to use if they want to keep away from offroaders.

I think what the OP is trying to say is that historically the TRF got rights of way opened up in the past for motor vehicles, which presumably have now got down graded to bridleways. Don't think he is asking for free access to motor vehicles just that current access shouldn't be further restricted (especially as it has already been massively restricted in the past few years) & perhaps mtb riders should show a little gratitude rather than jumping on the ban wagon.

Posted 3 months ago #
dazz - Member

Just my own thoughts here as a motorbike rider & mtb'er, but you get idiots in all walks of life, I treat the trails with the respect it deserves no matter what I'm on.

I've been out on trails on my motorbike & get tarred with the same brush as the numpties ripping everything up on a stolen or mx bike, I ride a road legal trail bike, not a mx bike.

I've also been out on the trails with my 9 yr old daughter on mtb's & have been frequently confronted by the "you shouldn't be here" crowd.

The problem is, as has been said before, people only ever remember/hear about the bad un's, I only ever use the trails when they are in the right condition whatever hobby I'm doing.

Should these ROW's be open to all? I honestly don't know, but with the ever decreasing miles of BOAT's the legitimate & carefull users are being forced into smaller & smaller areas, this concentration of masses of people doesn't help the area or the locals.

Imo everyone's entitled to be there & as long as they're respecting it live & let live, if they're not respecting it & they're breaking the law they be treated accordingly.

How long can we keep legislating for idiots & punishing the decent law abiding citizens who've done nothing wrong?

Posted 3 months ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

One of the things that has been seen for years is the damaging effect of degradation of the network by creating "hotspots"

You can spread, say, a couple of hundred users across the whole "old" network in the dales with few major problems, yet as they've gradually closed routes, those couple of hundred riders are concentrated onto only a few routes, instead of the dozens they used before, so the problem is concentrated and made worse.

given that so many areas have been treating "off roaders" as scum, when you start closing routes, some people don't just "give up" their sport, they go elsewhere, so the problem there becomes even worse - a good example would be the Dales NP off road bans leading to increased pressure in Nidderdale.

The problem I believe has been exacerbated by the "ban it" approach, when in fact they should have embraced it, and created some "sacrificial protection" in the less popular tourist areas, maybe some dedicated trails with reinforced surfaces and stone armouring in forest areas where the impact is a bit lower....

You know, you could put some great dedicated motorbike trails in places like Wales, Scotland and Northumberland, bring some tourist money into depressed areas, additioanl revenue streams for local communities with B&B's, shops, garages etc...

Posted 3 months ago #
druidh - Member

Zulu-Eleven - Member

You know, you could put some great dedicated motorbike trails in places like Wales, Scotland and Northumberland, bring some tourist money into depressed areas, additioanl revenue streams for local communities with B&B's, shops, garages etc...
The irony is that, despite the Land Reform Act, motorbike access in Scotland remains restricted to "private land with permission only". I can think of a number of loops which would provide a fantastic day out on a "green-laner", but while the majority of land remains in the ownership of a very few, this is unlikely to happen.

Posted 3 months ago #
psling - Member

Another parallel with MTBing is the sudden increase in recreational users wanting to spend their leisure time in the countryside.
Back in the late 80s/early 90s, 4x4s suddenly became affordable to the urban masses (previously the preserve of farmers and enthusiasts), enduro and trail bikes became a lot more popular to people for whom rural areas were becoming ever more reachable (ironically because of the surfacing and improvements to the rural road networks in the 50s and 60s to benefit the increasing availability of motor cars!). People had disposable income and were spending it on their hobbies and they want to pursue those hobbies in the great outdoors. A lot of them! Sound familiar?!?

Posted 3 months ago #
dazz - Member

Haven't people always wanted to spend there leisure time in the countryside?

According to my great grandad, he & my great nan used to cycle & take picnics into the woods when they were courting, probably for a very different reason than finding the sweet piece of singletrack though

but all the same..........

Posted 3 months ago #
psling - Member

That is true Daz but these days they would be sharing the woods with a couple of hundred MTBers, a few 4x4s, a handfull of trailriders, some twitchers, the new recreational tree-climbers club, a horse enduro, dog walkers and, probably, some doggers too

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot, some pole carrying ramblers. Picture the scene; grandad getting a bit mischeivous and some old redsock prodding his derriere with a walking pole and proclaiming "Oi, you can't do that here..."

Posted 3 months ago #
totalshell - Member

some real bullocks on here.. i was riding green lanes on my dt125 in the late 70's early eighties.. the lanes roads were empty no one on them i once met 4 other riders over scarbrough way other than that no one. i started riding mtb in the late 80's (88 i bought a shogun.. 89 an orange) i once met a runner on mastiles and 3 trail riders i lived nr skipton and rode a couple of hundred miles off road every week.. i never once came across 4x4
the firrst time i met hikers was near gargrave in 91 and the next whilst racing in the 3 peaks when agroup of hikers saw fit to try and push us off our bikes as we came down from the last summit.

today i cant push my bike out of my shed without meeting other riders and walkers are every 100m usually in large groups led by angry pensioners ( well folk over 50)

the truth is numbers have bloomed ( except of rmorobikes and 4x4) and the by ways have dimished and so conflict between user groups has increased because of a selfish attitude on all sides

Posted 3 months ago #
dazz - Member

Picture the scene; grandad getting a bit mischeivous and some old redsock prodding his derriere with a walking pole and proclaiming "Oi, you can't do that here..."

Really not something I ever want to picture TBH

He was with us on our motorbike trail rides into his 80's, you aint seen nothing till you've seen the face of someone who's just finished lecturing you about how you're not allowed to this here etc etc & he takes his lid off & says "sorry could you repeat that, I'm a bit mutton"

Posted 3 months ago #
ChrisE - Member

Nick,

Sorry I’ve been away – riding my bike.

These pics below are on Long Lane a couple of hours ago. It's one of the 13 applications put in by the TRF to upgrade was was recorded on the DM&S as a BW to be a byway. Of the 13 applications just about all were to change the records from BW to Byway (i.e. no obvious net gain for cyclists). Every one was found to be lacking so that not one was changed to a byway.

Anyway back to my ride. There was not a breath of wind, the sense of tranquillity and peace was unrivalled. I saw one walker and two other cyclists. Do you think my day would have been enhanced or have been made worse by seeing a group of 4x4s or road-legal-scramble bikes up there with all the noise and smell that comes with them? Maybe the walker was otherwise a 4x4 driver that was now walking the route. Do you think it was better that he left the car at the end of the tarmac and walked the route?

Incidentally your wondering about the phrase ‘coach road’ was almost certainly meant to mean a horse drawn coach, not a 54 seater coach!! You will know (if you are involved in RoW work) that the defining academic paper on the meaning of the word ‘road’ is one by Tricia Newby titled ‘Correcting the Camber’. It is accepted and quoted by PI inspectors at DMMO Inquiries. It states that the word ‘road’ was used historically to mean a way or track and not a track dedicated to wheeled vehicles.

C

Posted 3 months ago #
Zulu-Eleven - Member

Incidentally your wondering about the phrase ‘coach road’ was almost certainly meant to mean a horse drawn coach, not a 54 seater coach!!

And in 1968, "mountain" bikes hadn't been invented, do you think they envisaged 10" travel downhill rigs hooning down Snowdon at the time? upsetting the walkers, running over little old ladies and their dogs on the Llanberis path?

Clearly the solution is to ban bicycles from all bridleways in all the national parks to protect the peace and tranquility from these lycra clad louts?

You may laugh at such a proposition!

Early nineties saw Dartmoor make mountain biking a criminal offence, Exmoor listing mountain biking as an “unsuitable activity” in their local plan, and, yes, Snowdonia attempting to ban mountain bikers from their bridleways...

Its not so long ago us mountainbikers were 'persona non grata' - especially in the Yorkshire Dales NP - and nowt saying that we won't be again. people like Mark Allum have done huge amounts making the NPA friendly for MTB'ers there, but some of us still remember the old days

Posted 3 months ago #
b r - Member

if you want to see 'real' erosion, try some of the Peak District footpaths...

Posted 3 months ago #
cinnamon_girl - Member

Posted 3 months ago #
schnor - Member

Zulu-eleven is spot on about the hotspots problem.

Dazz
I ride a road legal trail bike, not a mx bike.

IME (and at the risk of talking to the converted here) many people don't really understand the difference between the legitimate TRF-type people and the idiots on mx bikes, just thinking they are all the latter.

I was involved in the early stages of Tread-lightly UK and see a good future for it, but quite frankly I don't see this as helping answer the current significany underlying issue, which is a complete lack of adequate legal trail length (can I blame NERC yet?)

totalshell

the truth is numbers have bloomed ( except of rmorobikes and 4x4) and the by ways have dimished and so conflict between user groups has increased because of a selfish attitude on all sides

This is how I see it, and I really don't know what the answer is TBH

[edit]

a bit OT, but the current definition of a road is, and I'm paraphrasing, 'something that looks like a road' I read it a few months ago reading a case study of someone being convicted for drink driving on a campsite field between two pieces of rope, apparently that was sufficient!

Posted 3 months ago #
yossarian - Member

your debt to the trail riders
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
My ar$e

I was logging back in to post EXACTLY that.

Posted 3 months ago #

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