“If Europe leaves us in crisis, we will flood it with migrants,” said Panos Kammenos, the defence minister and leader of the Independent Greeks party.

“Too bad for Berlin if there are some Jihadis from Islamic State in that wave of millions. If they strike us, we will strike them,”
😯

Euro still on the slide. £1-€1.40 today…

if the Greeks don’t get a deal there will be a rise of the far right in Europe, which is by the way total nonsense and if anything the opposite is true

It will read to a rise of the left and the decline of the right? have you ever looked at what happens in countries when they have massive economic downturns and they blame a foreign agency for it……I am struggling to not Goodwin this thread tbh.

have you ever looked at what happens in countries when they have massive economic downturns and they blame a foreign agency for it……I am struggling to not Goodwin this thread tbh.

Well it’s true that outside influences are often given as a reason for global economic downturns, and I assume you are referring to historical precedence from the 1930s.

Yes there was a swing to the far right, as well as to the far left, in many countries. And yes very right-wing parties did seize power in many countries, but that was not universal. There were exceptions where the left took power such as the Scandinavian countries and most glaring of all imo the United States with Roosevelt’s New Deal.

Interestingly after the latest global economic downturn the United States again swung to the left, even though not as much as in the 1930s.

As far as the likely scenario for Greece is concerned imo if there is a further seismic change in the political landscape due to a seriously deteriorating economic climate then I would expect it to be to the left rather than the right. Quite possibly from within Syriza itself as the motley crew of would-be academic revolutionaries rebel against the leadership. The KKE while it has potential for significant growth is still imo a long way from posing a serious threat to the existing political/social order. The far-right in Greece has no credible party beyond possibly the Independent Greeks which has seen its support fall dramatically in recent years. imho

As someone once said, political power grows from the barrel of a gun, and Golden Dawn are the ones with the guns. Their popularity within the police and armed forces were such an embarrassment that in the last election soldiers’ votes were distributed to different ballot boxes to mask the effect.

To be fair if there was a worsening economic situation in Greece I think a further seismic change in the political landscape is unlikely and the most likely scenario is Greece exiting the Euro and plodding along the best that it can.

But if I had to say in what direction any political change is likely to come then I would say to the left rather than the right.

Syriza have turned out to be nowhere remotely near the description that this thread title gave them. But it is clear that the Greek electorate was, despite all the scare tactics of labeling Syriza “far left”, prepared to vote for them. It is reasonable therefore to assume that a genuinely far-left party might stand a reasonable chance.

wrecker – Member

“If Europe leaves us in crisis, we will flood it with migrants,” said Panos Kammenos, the defence minister and leader of the Independent Greeks party.

“Too bad for Berlin if there are some Jihadis from Islamic State in that wave of millions. If they strike us, we will strike them,”

😯 [/quote]

😯 Indeed.

I took the time to read the latest submission from Greece (available on FT website). EDIT: Varoufakis has just “blasted the leak” in Parliament, I am not surprised as it shows it’s lack of substance and that’s very inconvenient for him

FT link to document

Very very little of substance, more promises to tackle tax evasion with a note that 24% of Greece’s GDP is in the black/shadow economy with “professional services” being a particular problem. If they where serious about tax evasion they would accept Germany’s offer of 500 tax inspectors.

I would expect this document will get short shrift from the eurozone as its just more nonsense just a bit longer than the prior submissions. 450m due to the IMF next week and the Greek’s don’t have the money.

If Greece wants to cozy up to Russia and Iran then so be it. It will just accelerate their exit from the euro and possibly the EU. The Greek people don’t want that, why would they want a standard of living of the typical Russian, Iranian or Turk for example ?

IMF increasingly skeptical an agreement will be reached with Greece.

Looks possible Syriza will stall to the point of default and then call an election citing “democracy”. The Troika can then decide whether to call the default or wait for any new government. This tactic was tried 5 (?) years ago by the PM who negotiated the original bailout who said he would call a referendum, Troika responce was sign now or we call a default. A short while later the guy was gone and Greece signed. This is looking like it could a Syriza repeat, refuse to negotiate and then walk away / call an election so as to dodge responsibility.

Here’s the picture in fairly vivid and shocking graphical form:

FWIW, this is from an article which points out the poorer Greeks are now worse off than in 1980s (and also incidentally goes on to question if/how that could happen in the USA).

IMF increasingly skeptical an agreement will be reached with Greece.

According to whom? FT has about as much credibility as Bild when it comes to reporting on Greece, selectively “leaking” what their EZ pals tell them.

Looks possible Syriza will stall to the point of default and then call an election citing “democracy

You mean, people deciding their own fate? The horror!! We can’t have that!! That’s the job of the banks!!

@DrJ – story in the Greek Press link and on Twitter picked up by Telegraph

You can democratically decide to not pay back your debts I suppose yes. However when you as a country owe money and you as a country have signed an agreement, be that a loan agreement or the EU treaty/eurozone then you don’t have complete carte blance to do WTF you want. You don’t have the democratic right to force the tax payers in the rest of the eurozone to bail you out on your terms as you decide from time to time.

The Greeks have not had much luck with persuading their neighbours to respect the principles of demcracy, even this century – the Turks, the Italians, the Germans, the British etc etc etc, and now the troika adding their names to the wall of shame, telling Tsipras who should and should not be in his government. The question now is do the lenders want to do what is best for the Greeks, for Europe, for their own tax payers? Or do they want to assert the unquestioned authority of the banks at whatever human cost?