Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)
  • Graphic Designers: What's the legality of using the Johnston typeface?
  • Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    I mean, I legally 'own' a copy of the font, but in the context of using it for a website aimed at Londoners, any ideas on the legality? Will I get sued by London Transport? Can't find any info regarding this on Google.

    Is it part of a 'brand identity' and therefore subject to copyright in the same sense as a logo or picture? Or can I just use it freely?

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    Seeing as the font is legally available to buy then as long as you are not implying any sort of endorsement of your clients product by London Transport I can't see what they can do.

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Yeah, my main concern was LT getting funny about it and hauling my sorry arse into court. I want to use Johnston because it's an iconic typeface associated with London, and therefore very apt. I am planning a cheeky little nod to the LT 'style', but am aware that I need to keep it unique and distinct.

    It's the context of the site, that I',m thinking about. Wouldn';t be a problem if it were a cake making business in Cornwall, but I have to b careful about LT coming and saying 'oi that looks too much like our style you cheeky bugger, people will think it's part of our stuff'.

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    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Thanks Clubber, very helpful of you.

    A non-exclusive licence to download and use the Typeface ("the Licence") is only available to a company ("the Company") associated with the Corporation as licensees or contractors

    Does this mean I have to be a 'company associated with' LT? 🙁

    Another issue is that this website will potentially be commercial at some stage, so that's another worry.

    So does it mean that unless I'm 'associated' with LT, I can't use it?

    aP
    Free Member

    LT are very strong on IP and will almost certainly pursue if they find you using it commercially. we have LT fonts and have had to sign up to fairly bluntly worded restrictions.
    Why not use Gill Sans instead – its almost the same (except for the diamond point).

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    You can use the typeface (within it's own license, of course). I guess what you can't do is make a product that could misrepresent London Transport. Just using the same typeface wouldn't do that, so really your question shouldn't be about the font at all.
    ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

    clubber
    Free Member

    This

    Why not use Gill Sans instead – its almost the same (except for the diamond point).

    Most people would never spot the missing diamond.

    If you think that it could become commercial then IMO you'd be stupid to use the Johnstone typeface now.

    the-muffin-man
    Full Member

    So if you buy this font set from Linotype are you saying you can't use it!

    http://www.linotype.com/152282/itcjohnston-family.html

    aP
    Free Member

    [cough] Johnson and more recently New Johnson were designed explicitly for use by LT companies. The restriction may actually only apply to New Johnson as that is the current TfL (LT) font.

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Great stuff people, this is very helpful. Thanks.

    I was afraid this might be the case. It's fairly rare that an entire typeface is part of a brand identity, so I thought I'd better check.

    Shame. Although Gil Sans is, as you say aP, just as good. It looks very similar, and has the same feel. Do like Johnston though.

    I think all London-born people should have the right to use it…

    I guess what you can't do is make a product that could misrepresent London Transport.

    That's actually kind of possible… 😀

    ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

    Erm I think it kind of is their own typeface!

    (aP this is going to involve you at some stage, so we need to meet to discuss matters over tea coffee beer)

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    Trust me i'm a typeface designer 🙂
    It's Johnston, see –> http://www.identifont.com/show?1YO
    The versions of the 'London Underground' font that are commercially available, you are free to use (once purchased of course), but, see my earlier post.

    aP
    Free Member

    I know several people who collect London Underground-esque logos and graphics from around the world. Sad isn't it…

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    ps if LT really have a problem with others using Johnstons font then they should stop using it and get a new one designed exclusive for their own use.

    Erm I think it kind of is their own typeface!

    Erm No it isn't :-p

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    So hang on it's getting confuddling…

    So it's ok to use the older Johnston fonts? Just not the latest one (New Johnston?)?
    😕

    aP
    Free Member

    beer – YAY!

    kelvin
    Full Member

    I am planning a cheeky little nod to the LT 'style'

    Well, even if you use Gill or something instead, if they think you might be passing yourself off as being linked to them, or approved by them, by copying their ID, then they may sue.

    [geek]I prefer the "R" in Johnston by the way, don't think Gill added anything useful when he "updated" things.[/geek]

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    So it's ok to use the older Johnston fonts? Just not the latest one (New Johnston?)?

    Well short version – Any font sold to you, legally, by a 'reputable' software company, you are ok to use, legally. The original Johnston font was designed in 1916. I have no idea which version LT use (they may have their own), but it's not a typeface that LT have exclusive rights to use. Same with French Connection using Eurostyle or John Lewis using Gill Sans, etc etc. This is why corps & brands now are using exclusively designed typefaces more and more.

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    [geek]I prefer the "R" in Johnston by the way, don't think Gill added anything useful when he "updated" things.[/geek]

    😀 I think my friends get little perturbed sometimes when we're out, and I spot a nice logo or typeface or something!

    'Ooh! look at that! How lovely!'

    'Er, it's a logo…'

    'But you don't understand! Look how beautiful it is!'

    'Yeah right. Great. Can we go now?'

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    Well short version – Any font sold to you, legally, by a 'reputable' software company, you are ok to use, legally.

    Yes, but the problem I'm having, is that the 'product' may in some way be compared with LT's own stuff, and people might possibly think that LT are in some way linked. I've got to avoid that happening, and need to know exactly where I stand on this.

    This is why corps & brands now are using exclusively designed typefaces more and more.

    This is why I'm trying to teach myself how to create fonts. People seem a little shocked that an entire 26-letter alphabet, upper and lower case with numbers and punctuation marks etc would cost them silly money.

    aP. let's make it happen. When you about? I'm going to be in St John's Wood on Friday after 5 I'd imagine, can drop into town from there.

    aP
    Free Member

    New Johnston (what they use currently like) is ONLY available under licence from TfL. It was designed exclusively for their use.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    I was always under the impression, possibly a mistaken one, that Gill was the face used for the iconic Underground maps and signage. Always liked Gill, despite Gill himself being a pretty vile human being. I'd use Gill, meself, just 'cos of it's historical connection, and also the fact Gill did the stonework on the front of the BBC building.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    Gill worked on Johnston's original font, for the London Underground, while he was studying under him. He later updated it to create Gill Sans, for LNER's classic posters, which in turn made it THE BEST FONT FOR A CLASSIC FEELING ENGLISH POSTER – EVER. Come on, keep up…

    You're right though, let's not get going into the personal life of Gill – shudder.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    You are a bit odd. Don't worry about it though.

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    😆

    Wibble.

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    In 1997, London Transport Museum licensed the original Johnston typeface exclusively to P22 Type Foundry, available commercially as Johnston Underground. Johnston Underground included Regular, Bold, and Extras weights, with the Extra containing only ornamental symbols. http://www.p22.com/products/underground.html
    If you buy the p22 fonts, you can use them. As i say it's not using this font that is your problem. I'm not sure what territory TL can claim over 'branding', after all are you making transport signage?

    aP
    Free Member

    Johnston isn't a current TfL font and as you say is commercially available
    However, New Johnston is the current TfL font and is only available for use under specific license from TfL.

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    So I can use older Johnston fonts then?

    Yippee!

    This thread has been more enlightening, informative and interesting than I could possibly have imagined. Thank you all.

    BluePalomino
    Free Member

    Just dont get me started on the Calvert & Kinneir fonts for the british motorway signs… 😉

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    OOOOOHHHH!

    (Gets too excited. Has to have a lie-down)

    kelvin
    Full Member

    They're selling Calvert's railway font now by the way… silly money though.

    aP
    Free Member

    I was nearly headhunted to run DRU….
    how surprising is that?

    Elfinsafety
    Free Member

    The only surprise is that they din't ask me. 🙁

Viewing 35 posts - 1 through 35 (of 35 total)

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