There are human beings without access to clean drinking water, children are trafficked for sex, women are mutilated, innocent people are killed in wars, I could go on. Caring about those things and animals are clearly not mutually exclusive, but i know what is at the top of my list when someone asks me what changes to human actions need to be made.

That’s a very poor argument – in fact it isn’t an argument at all.

john nice sentiment but it is hard to see how beakless chickens affects the cause of poverty stricken parts of the world. They are not so much mutually exclusive as they are unrelated. Perhaps if we treated animals better we would treat each other better?
Grumm where do you satnd on KFC 8)

Well no it’s a fair point, but at least in Britain we try to do right by all living things, well, most of us do anyway.

That’s a very poor argument – in fact it isn’t an argument at all.

It isn’t supposed to be an argument, just my opinion.

Junkyard, yep, they are unrelated, but out of my ‘caring about others time’ very little goes on animal welfare. I’d never say other people should change their personal priorities.

See i care for animals far more than i do for humans.

However i couldn’t be vegan/vegetarian as i like beef far too much

Grumm where do you satnd on KFC

Horrendous but I do very occasionally end up getting one so yes I am a massive hypocrite.

Junkyard, yep, they are unrelated, but out of my ‘caring about others time’

Could always increase your ‘caring about others time’ – I’m not sure about this, but it might make you a better person? 😛

I eat roadkill, now where’s my 4×4 I fancy a steak.

Could always increase your ‘caring about others time’ – I’m not sure about this, but it might make you a better person

Even with infinite time the priorities wouldn’t change.

you do animal testing I think don’t you? I expect you don’t mind much if hens have their beaks cut off or sheep and cows go to their deaths terrified and kicked, punched, poked, shouted at. God, I can’t even type it without crying. I’m out of here.

What CFH says. Having the diploma I have I know a fair bit about animal testing (all theoretically of course) and I think you are just wrong about that. Nowdays, animal testing is avoid as much as possible as it’s
extremely expensive and extremely difficult to set up (you wouldn’t believe all the freddibnah involved to be able to have a simian in a lab). Companies will try every other possible way before doing animal testing. Then there is sometimes not much of a choice. I agree that we could probably do without testing cosmetics on animals, but when it manages ot save human live or be able to put damaged disabled kids back on their feet (literally) I am all for it.

Then before worrying about how an animal is dead I much prefer it to be well treated during his living. Believe it or not, but I am damn sure pigs were a much happier lot when people where use to grow them in the back garden before slicing their throat off.

Where do you stand on the poor sheep being violently kill by a wolf?

Where do you stand on the poor sheep being violently kill by a wolf?

It’s probably better off being killed by a wolf than if it had stood on kaesaes’ grasshopper.

you wouldn’t believe all the freddibnah involved to be able to have a simian in a lab

Don’t they come with their own monkey shit then ?

Yeah but Juan; if you know someone’s upset about something, is it perhaps just better to leave them be, rather than have a sly dig at them?

Blimey Flash you usually come cramps as more intelligent.

I eat meat only several times a week but it does come from an organic farm in Hampshire that dynamically farms. It’s welfare standards are extremely high and is owned and run by an ex racing car driver. Yes, it costs a lot more, it is delicious but I just eat less meat.

I do however have no problem with eating pheasant, mallard, venison, guinea fowl etc. Would rather eat those than some intensively farmed cattle/pigs.

If people saw where chickens are kept, ie with no daylight, in aircraft hanger-style sheds, perhaps they would be shocked. However, I suspect most people are more concerned with how little they can pay for food in Tesco rather than how it has been treated.

For years we have become used to cheap food.

guinea fowl

better than Guinea Worm I spose…

CG; thing is, not everytone can afford pheasant, mallard, venison and guinea fowl, or be able to find it locally, speshly in large cities, so that’s a bit unrealistic to expect everyone to buy nice happy organic ethically produced meat. Besides, that kind of food production isn’t capable of providing any more than a fraction of the meat needs of the entire nation. Most of us have to rely on supermarket meat because we either can’t afford posh stuff or we simply don’t have the time to trek all over town to find all yer ‘ethical’ stuffs.

For years we have become used to cheap food.

Or rather, the increased demand for food has led to intensive farming and ‘unethical’ animal storage conditions. The Uk has a population getting towards 60 million people. Nice happy organic ethical food production probbly woon’t provide sufficient food for more than a couple of million people maximum.

IE, Britain’s overpopulated in terms of what it can provide.

I blame the (bit racist that bit probbly best not type that)…

😯

Elf – what people don’t realise is the cost of those! For example, farmers markets are the best source. I used to buy 5 pheasants for £10 – each one would provide sufficient meat for two/three people.

Mallard – cheaper than free-range chicken. Guinea fowl – probably the same as free-range chicken. Venison – you don’t need a huge amount as it doesn’t shrivel up once cooked.

Do not buy fur or feather in the supermarket, it is overpriced and farmed.

Seriously if you saw the number of pheasants that I nearly ride over in Hampshire/Chilterns etc, you would appreciate how many actually exist!

People need to open their eyes …

CG – aren’t a lot of game birds intensively reared? It mentions it in the article in fact I think. They just let them out for shooting season don’t they?

Yeah but CG; where the **** am I going to find a farmer’s market in a large city?

Trust me, a society like ours is reliant on intensive farming and importation to provide all it’s food needs. It’s simply fantasy to think we can all dine on free-range pheasant and venison.

I’m thinking about moving to the countryside and starting up an organic kebab farm; a nice, safe, happy healthy environment for the little kebabs until they are ‘adopted’ by customers.

Intensively reared? Well, the areas where I ride have many shoots, mainly pheasant and partridge. They are ‘free range’, fed on the corn that is grown in abundance here. They only live for a year mainly.

They are not caged – there’s so many of them, how could that be done?

Pheasant is delicious, roasted with a couple of slices of bacon across it plus a wee knob of butter inside the carcass.

Edit: Zulu-Eleven to the Forum (he knows about these things).

Elf:

http://www.farmersmarkets.net/listLondon.htm

Farmers markets have strict standards.

He’s probbly off somewhere fantasising about shooting people…

A quote that made me chuckle and I quite agree with is “I don’t care if the first light the animal I’m eating sees is the one in the oven” 🙂

Edit: Zulu-Eleven to the Forum (he knows about these things).

He’s been and gone.

And I have to say, his contribution wasn’t hugely impressive.

.

And he upset a lady 🙁

CG; I’ve been to a couple of those, let me tell you, you ain’t gonna get 5 pheasants for £10. £10 each, maybe. Those places are ridiculously expensive, and priced beyond the reach of many folk. Even my affluent middle-class friends are surprised at how spensive they are.

Sorry, but the brutal reality is we need intensive farming techniques to provide adequate food for this nation.

Ooh! Free Monkey with PG Tips!

(Runs off to 24-hour Tesco)

Zulu and I spent a lovely day recently as we have a shared interest in deer. He is a very knowledgeable bloke and he also likes causing trouble on here 😉

I’m thinking about moving to the countryside and starting up an organic kebab farm; a nice, safe, happy healthy environment for the little kebabs until they are ‘adopted’ by customers.

Do you know how to pluck them ?

Elf – we definitely do not need intensive farming techniques! I was a regular customer of the purveyors of fur/feather and they were in attendance at markets in Berkshire/Hampshire/Surrey. It may well be that you would have to venture out to Essex/Kent.

Farmers markets have strict controls – ie the produce must come from within a certain radius.

But an undercover investigation by animal campaigners has revealed a hidden side to the industrial breeding of game birds. It exposes appalling conditions in which millions of young pheasants are kept before they are sold to shooting estates.

Investigators posing as casual farm workers took secret film that showed how at some farms chicks are kept in cramped, overcrowded conditions with little access to daylight or outdoor exercise. In scenes reminiscent of intensive battery farms, thousands of young birds die or end up with deformities. Many chicks are pecked to death by other pheasants. It is estimated that more than 1.5 million chicks die on farms each year before they are dispatched to shooting estates.

Animal welfare campaigners claim the images dispel the myth that consumers buying pheasant or partridge are choosing a bird that has enjoyed a ‘free-range’ life before being shot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jun/27/foodanddrink.animalwelfare

Elf – we definitely do not need intensive farming techniques!

So, how d’you propose we feed 60 million people? This country imports millions of tonnes of meat every year. Do you seriously think the entire population can be fed simply using organic/free-rage meat?? No chance. We don’t have sufficient farmland to produce all the food this nation needs. S’why we import so much.

Do you know how to pluck them ?

Yes I am trained.

I have seen vast amounts of cages of game birds ready for release to be shot.

Probably better than battery hens but similar to a barn reared hens in terms of cramped conditions.

Of course Zulu will deny this but I have seen them.

When I start riding again, I will happily ask questions as sometimes have to go through shoots.

I am shocked that chickens are still kept in such poor conditions. The public close their eyes to this.

Elf – we do not need to eat meat very day, in fact we probably eat too large a portion anyway.

Elfinsafety – Member

Elf – we definitely do not need intensive farming techniques!

“So, how d’you propose we feed 60 million people?”

Factory farming is a recent development, so in answer to your question, by traditional farming methods.

And btw, Switzerland, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, Netherlands, and Germany all ban battery cages, do you think there is a serious shortage of chickens or eggs in those countries ? Are people going without food because of it ?

it would need more land put into farming and more people employed on in farming thus driving up prices.

Almost all UK farmland will soon be under the control of large agribusiness.

So, how d’you propose we feed 60 million people? This country imports millions of tonnes of meat every year. Do you seriously think the entire population can be fed simply using organic/free-rage meat?? No chance. We don’t have sufficient farmland to produce all the food this nation needs.

But we don’t need to eat anywhere near as much meat as we do, and meat takes much more land/resources to produce than vegetables.

Are people going without food because of it ?

Tis possible they import eggs from other countries who do use battery farming techniques. I dunno.

Look, I’m not saying it’s right, ok? But yer not going to feed a population the size of Britain’s without using a combination of intensive farming and importation. Britain doesn’t have enough land to grow all we need. Which is why there is so much intensive farming and congested chicken storage. Yes, we could eat less meat, but we’d still need a viable alternative protein source. What do you suggest?

We could look after animals better. That’s very true. But it’s a pipedream to imagine we can live off free-range chickens and pheasants and that alone.

Oh, don’t go biking, because millions of people worldwide work in terrible conditions in mines and factories to produce your bike, you know. Don’t drive a car because that’s killing the polar bears. Etc.

See, it’s not easy, to find the balance, is it?

Oh, don’t go biking, because millions of people worldwide work in terrible conditions in mines and factories to produce your bike, you know. Don’t drive a car because that’s killing the polar bears. Etc.

See, it’s not easy, to find the balance, is it?

Or you could just try wherever possible to mitigate the damage you cause, but not let it take over your life? :shrug: