maxtorque – Member
And this Ladies and Gentlement is why our increasing reliance on “machine justice” makes a mockey of the both the legal system and peoples attitudes to that system!

In the old days, a real policeman would have stopped you, had a chat, applied some common sense based on the actual situation they observed. Depending on those circumstances, and how the accused handled the incident, chances are you’d be on your way with a warning, and a mental note to yourself to be more observant next time. Job done, point made.

In 2014, a machine measures your arbitary speed in an arbitary situation, and if speed > (limit+leeway) sends you the bill in the post.
At no point is there any human interaction, the perpitrator ends up “hating” the system for penalising them for something that in their mind was incredibly minor and it erodes their confidence in both the legal system and also is, imo, actually more likely to make them miss the entire point of the speed camera in the first place.

This is a good point.

I got done last year by a camera for driving in a bus lane in Wembley High St.
According to the sign I read, I was allowed to do so, as it was a Sunday between certain times and the bus lane could be used as a normal traffic lane.
I tripped up however, as it was an event day. And there were some words on the sign that said ‘except event days’ or words to that effect.
It was a football match. I came in from the ‘opposite’ end of the high st, so there were no signs of a football match to me; no drunken fans, no scarves, no piles of plastic pint glasses everywhere.
Before moving, I read the sign, checked the bus lane was clear and used it as I thought it was OK to do so.
A week later I got an £80 fine for driving up about 100yds of bus lane. I wrote a letter back explaining the reasons for going in the bus lane and that I hadn’t been aware it was an ‘event day’. They basically wrote back and said tough, you still went in a bus lane, it doesn’t matter that you didn’t know it was an event day and it also doesn’t matter that there was no bus in the bus lane for you to impede.

The sign that tells you it is an event day is about 200 yds further back from the bus bus lane sign, but tells you no other information apart from that it’s an event day, so is of little consequence normally; unless you decide to use the bus lane. All the other signs have flip over panels to tell you when it’s an event day. But the bus lane one doesn’t. It must make them an absolute packet in fines.

Since this has happened, my parents’ won’t use the bus lanes at all, because even though they live in Wembley, they aren’t always sure if an event is on, so it’s safer for them to just avoid them.

Oh, and my point was ( 😀 ), if it had been a Orificer of the Law, I would have explained my rationale behind using the bus lane and likely would have been let off with a don’t do it again. Instead, someone in an office decided that ‘computer says NO’ and the ticket stood.

flicker – Member

molgrips – Member

Lorry to the left, van to the right…..

…and there you were, stuck in the middle

Need to watch yourself in Liverpool too, someone will stealer your wheels…..

Well done that man!

wilburt – Member

flicker – Member
Don’t think anyone defended speeding in the thread. Not going back to double check though, I’m not that bored.

But bored enough to post?

I can see an example on this page.

Yup, bored enough to post

Poor obs on my part, I can only see Molgrips explaining why he made his mistake, but not condoning the speeding itself.

@verses

😀

If I’m so unobservant, how come I’ve never been caught before in 20 years of driving?

If I’m so unobservant, how come I’ve never been caught before in 20 years of driving?

Fake number plates?

If I’m so unobservant, how come I’ve never been caught before in 20 years of driving?

it would appear to be luck rather than good judgement.

i’ve only been caught twice and I break the speed limit all the time.

it would appear to be luck rather than good judgement.

Based on what? Your prejudice about my driving ability?

What you’re confusing, I think, is that the legal status of the built-up area (technically “restricted roads”) applies unless the road is signed otherwise.

The relevant bit of law is here:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/part/VI

…

Thanks for the link. Read it. Still don’t understand it.

I’m not sure if this applies to where the NSL is signposted? And if it does, after a bit of observation on my drive home last night, it seems most of the NSL roads I drive on, on my commute home, would be a 30mph limit….

Can you not see that an observant driver would notice the signs from a distance

In defence of Molgrips, it’s not just whether signs are prominent or obscured, but whether they’re prominent amongst the rest of the signs and stimulus we encounter on the roads. It can very difficult, in fact I would say impossible in many instances, to take everything in in a new area.

I don’t think anyone in this thread can claim they’ve never been uncertain of the speed limit after a missing a sign. Personally I went as far as driving the wrong way down a one way street once…

[/quote]molgrips – Member

If I’m so unobservant, how come I’ve never been caught before in 20 years of driving?

Same reason I HAD a 20 year unblemished record. A moment of inattention.

However, I acknowledge it was my fault for not seeing the ‘No entry except for buses’ sign in that there Liverpool whilst following my Sat Nav to somewhere new.

Because you usually are sufficiently observant?

This time you weren’t. Which is what I was getting at before – standard signs, standard layout, and you must have entered identically signed speed limit areas hundreds of times in your 20 years of driving. It is not the road layouts fault that on this occasions you were not paying sufficient attention to the road signs as you evidently usually do.

Based on what? Your prejudice about my driving ability?

based on your argument that the signs were easy to miss. ergo, you have probably missed similar signs before and inadvertently driven over the speed limit.

only difference is this time you got caught.

Because you usually are sufficiently observant?

Exactly, that’s my point. Tinybits wants to think I’m always unobservant, which I don’t think is fair.

Ok, so you are usually sufficiently observant. On this occasion, one of two things happened.

1) The signing of the speed limit was somehow deficient causing you to miss it.

2) You weren’t sufficiently observant on this occasion, causing you to miss it.

Since the signs are as they should be, and as they are everywhere else, and the same as what you will have passed hundreds of times before without missing them, the answer is 2).

Ergo, the signage was sufficient, and there is no need to make them bigger or build a f eckin gantry over every multi lane road that has a change of speed limit on it.

I’d say mostly 2, but an element of 1. The signs might be legal minimum but more would have helped me see them. There’s an argument for more signage I reckon, mostly due to there being three lanes.

Ahem. No 3 in Mersyside, apparently:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/merseysides-hottest-speed-camera-catches-6594438

No 2 on that list features at no 10 busiest in the country:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/87748/britains-busiest-speed-camera-made-189000-in-2013

So maybe it IS hard to spot after all…

I got caught in a similar situation in Southampton. Wide dual carriageway no repeater 30 mph signs. When you look up the camera on the web and the one in Liverpool that Molgrips was caught by they are both very high earners in terms of numbers of people caught. (In excess of 3500 people per year).
If the objective is to keep accident rates down by reducing vehicle speeds then clearly the camera is not working. The figures prove that people continue to exceed the speed limit. Providing more indication of the speed limit would clearly reduce vehicle speeds and the numbers of people getting caught by the camera would reduce. This would obviously make the road safer but wouldn’t generate as much revenue.

Providing more indication of the speed limit would clearly reduce vehicle speeds

Exactly. A big f-off sign would’ve worked perfectly, the camera didn’t!

Geez, what a thread.

Nobody is perfect guys, if you’ve driven more than a few thousand miles then chances are you will of at one point made a mistake. We don’t all have built in speedo’s and our ability to gage that kind of speed isn’t very precise. You may not of been caught making that mistake granted.

I’ve only been on the roads for about 3 months, passed my test first time etc and i don’t believe myself to be a bad driver… but it’s sometimes easy to get caught out. When your a new driver, in a busy area you’ve not driven in before, checking your speedo often as you sometimes need to do in such situations is very distracting amongst all the other things you have to deal with.

I’m sure one of you will say that if you find it difficult you shouldn’t drive etc etc… fact is your own personal view of yourselfs is probably unrealistic, you are indeed human and you do in fact make mistakes.

If you’re a new driver you’ve got a LOT to learn, a hell of a lot. Which is fine, but make sure you appreciate that – as it sounds like you do!

you are indeed human and you do in fact make mistakes.

You obviously don’t know Molly, he is perfect and has spent many 100s of posts telling us all so… 😉

No, I tell you all you’re not perfect, and for some reason people seem to assume that means I’m saying I am perfect.

For some people the world is a fight on personal lines; all about who wins against whom. It’s not – it is what it is, we are what we are.

Don’t you think the fact you have been a sanctimonious tool so many times in the past, regarding other people’s speeding tickets, has anything to do with the responses you have got here ?

Maybe.

I’m sanctimonious for two reasons:

1) People want to justify speeding
2) People don’t want have to watch out for speed limits

I’m happy to watch for limits, and stick to them – I just think that in this case they could have made it a bit easier.

People want to justify speeding

like by claiming the infrastructure is inappropriate?

So your ticket is because the signs weren’t clear enough, or there was a lorry in the way, or basically anything other than just plain and simply “your fault”

And your past sanctimonious posts towards other people in the same situation…. well that’s other people’s fault too.

Glad we have got that cleared up.

People want to justify speeding

like by claiming the infrastructure is inappropriate?

Point totally missed.

So your ticket is because the signs weren’t clear enough, or their was a lorry in the way, or basically anything other than just plain and simply “your fault”

FOR **** SAKE

IT WAS MY FAULT I MISSED THE SIGNS

I don’t think I’ve ever been sanctimonious towards anyone who realised they’d done wrong. Why don’t you go back and check, I won’t.

IT WAS MY FAULT I MISSED THE SIGNS

well thats the first time you’ve admitted that without a ‘but’

IT WAS MY FAULT I MISSED THE SIGNS

[quote]well thats the first time you’ve admitted that without a ‘but’[/quote]

Exactly.

the camera may be one of the busiest in the country – but that’s probably more to do with it being sited on a three lane road than the signage being poor

I don’t think I’ve ever been sanctimonious towards anyone who realised they’d done wrong.

I think you’ll find you’re the only one on here with that opinion!

I still think the signage could be better.

My position hasn’t changed, but I thought you were being confused with the extra sentences.

I still think the signage could be better.

😆

I’d go as far to say this is mission accomplished, Molgrips.

Nice work.

Is there a ‘whole forum-1’ facepalm gif available anywhere Jamie?

STW needs it black and white apparently.

Saying the signage could be better doesn’t mean I’m trying to get out of responsibility.

Of course the “signage could be better”

They could have a massive gantry every 100 yards made entirely out of 20 foot wide “30mph” signs.

But the signage was “standard” and perfectly adequate, like thousands of other roads all over the country.

You missed it.

It’s that simple.

and perfectly adequate

Disagree.

So, did you really get a speeding ticket or are you just having a slow week at work and thought you’d light a fire?

and perfectly adequate

[quote]Disagree.[/quote]

Contest the ticket in court then.

No point moaning about it on here.

Let us know how you get on.