The entry includes a day permit though, whether you have an annual one or not though IIRC?

The trails weren't that wrecked by the racing. They were either armoured (tank traps, labyrinth etc and didn't seem to be suffering) or bits I wouldn't bother riding anyway (what was with that off camber mud slide 2/3 the way round? was that cut especially for the event?)

And plenty of riders without number boards coming in both directions along the trails.

That off camber mud bit was to practice your "cross" skills! I couldnt help but laugh everytime I did it..Massive **** factor & highly amusing 😈

In a past life I used to be an orienteerer, til I worked out it was nuts, and there were often similar discussions there about the sheer number of people causing erosion that takes ages to recover.
The difference is that Swinley is used year round, so it doesn't really get any time to recover until other riders are through there. If you look at some of the busier parts of Peaslake you can see how over the year the rain and too many riders just wreck the trails.
With somewhere as large as Swinley, there's an argument for closing some of the trails for a couple of weeks after something like the Gorrick to give them time to dry up a bit.

On a mostly unrelated topic, can someone expand on this servowave discussion for me? Is the story basically that the Shimano lever pushes more piston through the level pull, and so the pads are slightly clearer of the mud build-up on the rotor? What's the tradeoff?

basicly…………..

The pad moves a lot further relative to the lever on SW brakes in the first part of the travel. After this there's a step and the pads don't move as far but the lever keeps pulling. Thus you can build a brake with big pad clearance which would normally be very underpowered, but still have lots of power.

Years ago, trails were routinely closed off to allow recovery. New trails were cut to replace them.

I'm not being difficult here but . . . .

I think reluctant and cinnamon girl have a valid point on the trails – assuming everyone went there to trash the place. I don't believe that was the case though – the riders went to race and not specifically ruin the enjoyment of trails for everyone else afterwards. There is a difference to be fair.

Trail management is an issue moving forward though – have you contacted Gorrick to discuss this??

Cinnamon Girl –

So you've paid £20 for an annual permit. I do too.

Our £20 fee works out to £0.05 per day.

There are no more than 5 events at Swinley/Crowthorne each year (probably over estimating here).

That means a total "loss" of £0.25

As someone who does most of these event, I feel responsible. What's your Paypal address, I'll re-imburse you for your loss.

On a separate note, I do agree that the trails at Swinley are degenerating with more and more riders using the place – this has nothing to do with racing. Like the North Downs area, this place is a victim of its own success. For example, the trail running from the Reservoir away from Full 9 Yards (it has a few steps on a tight right hand corner half way down) is very old. I've been riding it for at least 10 years and it has remained unchanged in most of that time. In the last 6 months at least 3 or 4 new "fall line" descents have been built on the hillside which are now wrecking the original trail. The work BOB do maintaining the trails is excellent – the "ginger trails" or whatever you want to call them have really helped a lot. However, small group of volunteers is not going to be able to keep up with the volume of traffic the place gets. Sustainability should be high on the Forest's agenda but doesn't seem to be. I know it's privately owned – is it managed by the Forestry?

GB

Gee – I appreciate your offer but that's not the solution, is it!!

But I have to disagree with your comment that the degeneration has nothing to do with racing. As you rightly say, more and more riders are using Swinley. However, I do feel that when you have over 500 riders racing on the one day, there will inevitably be some trail damage/erosion.

Swinley is unique in that it isn't branded as a 'trail centre' although it is debatable whether folk think it is! In some ways it would be helpful if trails were graded so as to avoid accidents and the air ambulance wasn't such a frequent visitor.

Sustainability does need to be high on the mtb agenda though. I've used the Forest for donkey's years for walking, dog walking and running (with a race number) so have seen first-hand the huge changes.

Funny though, with the ridiculous cost of petrol, one would expect people to use their local trails more.

Unbelievable, I never thought it would be harder than the muc-off! My lapierres brakes were shot after two laps and I was finished after 3,my lad managed 1 bless him. 70 quid on pads, plus discs and I nearly killed the vectra leaving on that exit fireroad! The hardest thing i've ever done and the coldest I've ever been by far. See you next year 🙂
511

I didn't mean that the racing causes none of the damage – just not the majority of it.

"one would expect people to use their local trails more."

I think most people are. If you live in London, as 8 million people do these days, where do you go to ride? North Downs or Swinley are natural destnations these days. It's sort of like the Downs in that it's a trail centre but not really. As I said, this is something for the forest management to decide. It is far easier for them to just ban us riding (and racing) there than sort things out sustainably, sadly.

GB

Unlike the Forrestry Commision, Crown Estate hasn't been looking to maximise it's revenue potential in recent years. However as their profits feed directly into HM Treasury this situation is unlikely to continue.

The closet they come to a trail centre at the moment is Glen Livet which has a number of way-marked trails and there are proposals for a bike centre with 7 stanes style trails to be developed. If that is successful who knows what they might be tempted to do with Swinley.

Interestingly there are no requirements for permits/insurance to ride at Glen Livet.

I see from the Crown Estate web site that they recently advertised for a new Chief Forrester for the Windsor Estate (incorporates Swinley) and I'm sure who ever they have selected will have their own ideas of what to do with the large number of MTBers now using the forest and the impact that has.

Only Gorrick would organize a race around Crowthorne woods after the worst weather for years. I have been walking and riding around Swinley for the past 25 years. The single most damaging element is racing. The trails change and erode but the races destroy them. You say “a small group of volunteers is not going to be able to keep up with the volume of traffic the place gets” I have been looking after the corkscrew in Crowthorne woods for 3 years that includes clearing all the crap left after the last tree cutting when the trail was blocked. I can cope with the year to year traffic. But one race does more damage than a good years riding. You say Gorrick make new trails true they made the twisty banked bits leading to jump gully. But 3 years ago one of these races destroyed them and it was a year befor the repair. On average after a race the trails can’t be ridden for a month longer in bad weather.

Only Gorrick would organize a race around Crowthorne woods after the worst weather for years

Mate, they didn't organise it after – it happened to rain on the day of the event…

Not this race the last XC race around Crowthorne woods, sorry if not making myself clear.

Pete – and you have done a great job. I just think the place needs proper looking after to cope with the volume of riders. I have no bias on how that work is funded – just an opinion that it needs doing. If the races do as much damage as you say, perhaps more needs to come from there. However, the trail linking the top of Full 9 Yards to Crowthorne hasn't been raced on for a while and was ruined this winter – a 10ft wide bog. I remember that being a singletrack not too many years ago – and that's without any racing.

"Only Gorrick would organize a race around Crowthorne woods after the worst weather for years"

But it had been dry as a bone for a month prior to the race. I rode there on Friday and it was dry. Unfortunately you can't just cancel the event. Look at SITS/Mayhem etc for comparisons with dreadful weather. There needs to be another solution.

GB

This is just what I see and what I think. It’s not good to have winter races around a track that can’t take it. There seemed to be many people on the forums after the snow talking about not riding and respecting the trails that were damaged. Also the Crowthorne area is FC land so Gorrick can’t do anything to repair the damage. It’s just not good. I would love to spend my Saturdays in Swinley with a spade and wheel barrow. I would not ask for anything in return but with Gorrick races it would be like a doctor gives you an ibuprofen after you blow your head off. I have help Gorrick to build some of the trails before you all hang me.

Pete – I do agree with you and really appreciate the huge amount of effort you put in. I don't intend to hang you.

How come the FC means Gorrick can't do anything to repair the damage?

GB

Gorrick cover the Crown estates they can’t touch Forestry Commission land. I don’t think you will hang me but normally if you talk about trail work someone will tell you they will ban riding in swinley. I don’t make new trails I just dig drainage and move crap.

it's not a huge amount of effort it,s a few hours every few weeks.

Pete – thanks for your efforts on the trail building! Interesting point about the Gorrick races causing more damage than perhaps we'd been aware of – fair point and thanks for making that (along with cinnamon girl!)

glenncampbell thank you

Interesting discussion this. I certainly always thought that racing on those trails wasn't responsible for that much erosion and damage compared to the other 364 days in the year.

On a nice Sunday I will see 40+ riders on 15miles of track. On a wet day I will see 5, on a wet race day it’s 300 on ten miles of track.

I understand people want to race on bikes, but for me the damage and speed removes any fun. Very few people I know who ride race as well.

Racing (of any sort) pretty much wrecks trails, I've seen it with motorsport, running, horse trials and MTB.

A trail that can happily support 100 riders (or horses/runners etc) in the course of a day can't cope with 100 riders every 30 minutes going twice the speed of a "normal" MTBer, especially in the wet.

I learnt to find my way around Swinley by following the tracks from the last XC race, they were visible for a month afterwards. Not really sure what the answer is – perhaps a system of trail rotation where they close sections for a month or so? Better/more trail maintenance at the risk of turning it into a full-on trail centre?

Not much else to add to what CG, Petetheplumber etc have said. And thanks Pete – have appreciated your efforts clearing out the corkscrew before too. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, fact is they have had an additional race there already this year owing to a cancellation at another venue (ok, the weather wasn't like the weekend), the folk that maintain the trails are well meant and (largely) appreciated but they don't seem to want help from other folk, the Crown Estate and FC aren't putting much in and the place is seeing a lot more traffic. I think something needs doing to make Swinley more sustainable for the future, because the way things are going some stuff will be damaged beyond repair (well, at least what the current custodians can do given their limited time, resources and trail building skills).

Thank you to petetheplumber for being so public spirited. 😀

What I am rather concerned about is that Swinley could so easily go the same way as the original "technical" trail at QEP. Neglected and pretty much unusable.

Rumour has it that Bracknell Forest Borough Council received £20K for allowing the film crew to use a car park. Crown Estate also got megabucks for allowing filming. When is this money going to filter through for Joe Public's benefit, not specifically mountain biking?

Don't forget that the Forest is massively popular for the local community and the play area is great for kids.

I would say that a comprehensive and well thought-out plan is needed to address the future of Swinley Forest as a recreational destination.

CG agree with that. And given some of the damage done to certain trails during the filming, don't think it is too much to ask to put a bit back to fix them up (cash that is). Else I'll have my 20 notes back! 😉

I reckon armouring and way marking a couple of routes would do for most of the weekend warrior traffic. Leaving the rest of the trails alone.

Tbh I thought the trails held up pretty well during the race. My local trails are far worse than that after bad weather!

I'll be back to swinley in a couple of weeks or so to try to remember the route and find some of those runs, will be interested to see if they've recovered or as bad as people are suggesting.

auric – definitely! £20 is currently not value for money. 🙄

Don't suppose anyone has a gpx of the route pretty please? E-mail in profile if you would be so kind.

Am intending to organise another Forum Ride sometime, also another Chilterns one too. Just got to get through this Saturday's Winchester Forum Ride with its "surprise finish". 8)

would this forum ride be with the same group / numbers that giggled so much about how bad conditions were on the last forum ride?

The Monsoon Ride – yes, it was wet, very wet in fact. But it didn't stop 40 STW'ers turning up for a great day of riding. HTH.

Playing devil's advocate. The Gorrick races will have been larger numbers of course but also will be reinvesting a proportion of the income into ongoing work and maintenance. Whereas the participants of the forum ride, in going ahead with it after the wettest winter on record will have done a degree of trashing of trails with little or no contribution to remaintaining the network.

Physician, heal thyself?

we decided not to go they call them weather forecasts we ended up at glycoriwg the sun was shining all day done the whites climb in 34 mins

Going to disagree with you! Bit of a difference between 600 riders riding up to 70 miles and a group of 40 STW'ers spending half the ride nattering and fettling 😀

No comparison I would say!

Edit: There's plenty of folk off here who would gladly help with trail maintenance but they don't necessarily want to pay and become a member of the BOB club.

"but also will be reinvesting a proportion of the income into ongoing work and maintenance."

After paying for their insurance there isn’t much left over. All the forum riders had their permits. And it takes over a year to fix what gets damaged if ever.

On the Gorrick web site it claims.

"Gorrick has access to a range of distinctive established all weather race courses"

I don’t think that’s very accurate. I would never ride in any advent that would cause so much damage.

pete – I believe the majority of their races are held in smaller venues that see less use.

I truly believe that a complete rethink/new plan is needed for mountain biking in Swinley Forest.

Depends what you mean by all weather. I didn't use mud tyres yesterday, and 100% of the lap was rideable at first, with tired legs I ran 2 sections, so it's all weather in that capacity, compared to (for example) Eastnor Castle where you can barely drag the bike, let alone ride it.

That's clearly the point they're making, rightly or wrongly, most people care how the trails ride, not how sustainable they are, and that's the case anywhere.

Let's be honest, it would be a lot better if no one did any mountain biking in wet weather, that's when the trails get trashed.

CG I'm sure I could retrieve the GPS track, but for a ride around Swinley, you could incorporate more singletrack and less fireroad without too much trouble, you could avoid the now boggy bits too!

As far as I can see difference is only in scale. The ethos is the same, if conditions are that bad why is it ok to continue with one organised ride but not another.

600 riders riding up to 70 miles

Might have been that many riding that far if the weather had been good (in which case what damage would have been caused?), but in the conditions there were about half that number with the majority riding no more than a couple of laps. A significant proportion of which was over fireroad or surfaced trail.

All the worst bits were definitely fireroads, most notably the first couple of miles, which I wouldn't bother to do on a social ride, as they basically serve to drag the field out a bit and add some distance, which was my point about the GPX track!

"Let's be honest, it would be a lot better if no one did any mountain biking in wet weather, that's when the trails get trashed."

Swinley can handle day to day use, but races do too much damage. It’s not what I think all weather means. It should say all weather for the first lap and if it rains crap for the next 6 weeks. But hay it’s up to you to race and for the rest….. Can’t think how to end that sentence.