Viewing 17 posts - 1 through 17 (of 17 total)
  • Good online training resources
  • DT78
    Free Member

    So, I have read friels training guide and the time crunched cyclist, picked up loads from both, but if I’m honest they are a little beyond my current understanding levels.

    I’ve just had a vo2 max and blood lactate test at a local uni and looking for some good online resources to help interpret the results and build a plan.

    If I can’t find anything pitched at the right level, I will probably stump up the cash to pay for some coaching support to help build the plan. Chap is on paternity leave for two weeks now though.

    Or is anyone on here an expert and fancies helping with a few questions?

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Interested to know what you do with the results and how they would work into a plan.

    I just try and come up with repeatable field tests that measure performance factors relevant to my chosen events, and work plans around them. Not sure how knowing a number for vo2 max or blood lactate would really help me much, though I am quite curious!

    I’ve picked up loads from the books you mention, and random stuff online but it’s all articles/posts instead of a specific resource. I’d like to be a lot more scientific about to make it as time efficient as possible, but I don’t have the knowledge and really wouldn’t know where to start.

    If you do go the coaching route I’d be interested to hear how they use this data and how scientific they are in their approach? I suspect there are some coaches who are very scientific in their approach but they are probably coaches at British Cycling!

    seanbolton
    Free Member

    Try Training Peaks for some good free articles in the blog section.

    Sign up if you are keen on really monitoring your training.

    http://home.trainingpeaks.com/

    Lots of rider/coaches use Training Peaks to record and analyze training.

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    mrblobby
    Free Member

    TrainingPeaks is very good. Base much of what i do around their Performance Manager. They’ve got a good book on that detailing how things like TSS and TSB work.

    DT78
    Free Member

    Thanks will take a look at training peaks, tbh I was expecting the report to have a little more detail in it, it is slightly more than the raw data. In terms of usefulness I think it really helps if you do it regularly to track your progress (if you can afford it)

    For me I’m using it as a bench marking exercise I had a less scientific test 2 years ago to establish my HR zones I’ve been used for training with the last couple of years.

    My VO2 max has moved from mid 40s / 192bpm / 320w to 65.4 / 194bpm / 340w most of the improvement is down to losing weight, still got a couple of kg to go…

    The bloods should give you a much more accurate HR & power zones than the standard calcs from max HR.

    In 2 years it Looks like my zone 1 now has moved from 125bpm / 160w to 128bpm / 135w and my zone 5 from 178bpm 280w to 189bpm 305w. Max 192 / 320w to 194 / 340w.

    Though, as the tests weren’t the same I’m not comparing like with like (original test was only 1 min ramps of 20w whereas this test is 3min ramps of 35w). Apparently it takes 2 mins or so for the HR to normalise so 1 min ramps is too quick and probably why my power output was higher on the previous tests.

    To really get the benefit I need a power meter to train at the right “boundaries” for max improvements.

    One thing the original test covered, this one didn’t which was useful was the amount of calories consumed at various Bpm from fat and sugars. I used this to work out fueling strategies for races.

    The other thing I was hoping for was some more understanding around pacing and what theoretically were the best Bpm / power outputs to maintain for set time lengths in the saddle so I can pace races more effectively.

    Field testing is still super important as a guide, like setting up a timed loop, but conditions can make such a difference. Personally I’ve just been using strava and tracking prs to gauge my improvements.

    ac282
    Full Member

    Are you pretty small?

    340W doesn’t seem much for someone with a VO2 of 65.

    Calories consumed isn’t of much use in races as you are limited by your gut. In a long race you should just each as much as you can get in without digestive distress (normally ~ 1g carbs/kghr).

    DT78
    Free Member

    See I have nothing to compare against so no idea if those figures are ‘good’ or not. They are improvements for me which is the main thing.

    I’m 179cm @ 74.5kg coming up 36 yo.

    That’s not peak power btw it’s 340 during a ramp test (so around 29mins of increasing resistance) We did a couple of quick max tests after but I was pretty fatigued, they were around the 850w mark. Last test they were closer to 950w probably as the test was half as long. Reckon real world peak is close to 1000 maybe 1100. Also real world hr can go up to 202 in races.

    It seems to be my quads hurting that limits me rather than the engine if that makes sense. I very very rarely need to slow due to being out of breathe it is always the quads hurting. (This is a question I need to research, if this is the case what do I need to train…. Strength? Lots of squats?)

    I went out yesterday to try to interval at +189bpm and it was near impossible to get my hr that high on anything but good sized climbs. On the flat the quads go before I get the hr high enough.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    Tricky if you are not comparing like for like (the large change in VO2max is a bit suspect.) I think I’ll stick to doing my own testing on a turbo with a power meter, at least it gives me something that is easily repeatable (and cheap!) and I can work with. If there’s something I want to work on I can try and come up with a test to quantify where I currently am too.

    On the flat the quads go before I get the hr high enough.

    (This is going to sound very STW, but…) Position on the bike? May just be a case of adaptation though. Had something similar when trying to adapt to a good position on the TT bike. Worked on things like short achievable intervals initially, stretching the duration over the course of several weeks or months. Also low cadence high power intervals helped with that sort of thing too. Core work may help.

    To really get the benefit I need a power meter to train at the right “boundaries” for max improvements.

    It’s a lot of money but they really are worth every penny IMO.

    dirtygirlonabike
    Free Member

    I went out yesterday to try to interval at +189bpm and it was near impossible to get my hr that high on anything but good sized climbs

    That’s around my threshold HR. If your fit, it’ll take a while to get HR up that high (for me it takes around 90s or so if i’m on my own) so depending on how long your intervals are, you could have already been at 189 hence tired legs by the time its showing on HRM? I used to have to do my zone 5a/b training on a climb as it was hard to hit 190+ otherwise. Horrible! Otherwise position and or being quad dominant? Are you using your glutes and hamstrings?

    I’d say spend your money on a coach (you should get training peaks as part of this too, at least with my 2 coaches over 3 seasons i always have). They will be able to structure your training better than you can plus the right amount of intensity/recovery in intervals through either power or HR.

    If you have the spare cash, then get a power meter as well as a coach…i switched to power earlier this year, its been an interesting adjustment to my training and i much prefer it to HR.

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    That’s around my threshold HR. If your fit, it’ll take a while to get HR up that high (for me it takes around 90s or so if i’m on my own)

    This is very true. Doing intervals at FTP the other day, it can take anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes for my HR to reach a steady state (the older I get the longer that seems to take!) If I was going just by HR I’d probably be going far too hard initially and really struggling to complete any of my intervals. Using a PM also really helps manage that initial acceleration up to interval pace, very easy to over cook this and again struggle to complete the interval.

    If you are serious, and don’t want to mess about experimenting with your training (I quite like this but often get in a bit of a muddle) then probably best just get a coach. Though I’ve no idea how you find a good one! And I’d assume if they are good they’ll probably recommend you get a power meter.

    dirtygirlonabike
    Free Member

    (the older I get the longer that seems to take!)

    Yeh i’ve found that too, and my race warm up has had to change this season as the elites/pros go full gas from the gun in crits whereas i need time to get going. 🙁

    My coach used HR to train me initially – for just under a year – and the rest of the time has been to power. The difference with power (and the way he interprets/uses it) is that if i blow on lap 4 of a climb at say 400w, then i’ll be doing intervals at 400w. Both are a good investment – i couldn’t interpret my data in the same way he does, nor could i train myself in the same way he does. Power also makes hitting specific zones much easier, having spent the last few months doing V02 TT efforts i can safely say i’ve never ever worked this zone in HR training!

    Also, have you warmed up before hitting your intervals? Not just riding but proper warm up – again if i just rode for a bit then tried to do my 1st interval i’d never hit high HRs – power however is different.

    DT78
    Free Member

    He recommend a SRM but they are so much ££. I could just about stretch to a stages. I would then have to do some ‘calibration’ to understand how it fits with the lab power meter.

    I was surprised with the big jump in vo2, but I’ve lost a good chunk of weight, in the region of 12kg which would make a massive difference to the calc. I also used to compete internationally (martial arts) so my theory is I’ve always been blessed with pretty good cardio.

    The quads could be position or core, I’ve had a retul fit in the past and I have recently started core specific exercises and see an osteo once a month.

    Interesting others have the same issue with trying to get their HR up. My first ‘interval’ was only supposed to be 2 mins, legs gave up at 6 and I still wasn’t there! Was good enough for a KOM though….

    Might be I need to stick to proper hills or the turbo for structured interval training.

    Feedback was I am about as fit as an amateur can get without a structured plan, but then again the lab probably has an interest in saying that to promote its coaches!

    Depending on what it costs I’ll probably go with a coach first

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    SRM are indeed much ££. I’ve got a PowerTap for the turbo bike, and a Power2Max on the way too. Stages is a good value option, though seem a bit troubled at the moment. Rotor LT may be a better bet when it comes out. This thread worth a look.

    What is the vo2 max calc? I didn’t think weight had much bearing on it (though possibly if related to fitness.) Edit… ah just reading about relative and absolute rates.

    By the way, where did you get the testing done? Quite interested in this if there is proper coaching associated with it.

    DT78
    Free Member

    Yea I’ve seen the thread – its been tempting me towards a stages as a cheap entry to powermeters especially as it is on offer…plus a riding buddy has the rival one and is very happy with it.

    Vo2 max takes into account weight – this explains it quite well –
    http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/triathlons/training/vo2-max1.htm

    I was tested at my local uni (solent) which does all the testing for Southampton Football team. If you are near Southampton I can give you the main chaps number / email though he is away for a couple of weeks now. Otherwise check you local uni’s sports dept. The setup at Solent is really impressive. They even have a giant treadmill you can get you bike on (though its mainly used for wheelchairs)

    You can also get your name put on the mailing list for various trials and studies and if you take part you can often get tests thrown in for free. He is currently doing a study on critical power, but I’m too late to join that one.

    @dirtygirl – can I ask roughly how much your coach costs? I’ve got no idea what sort of figure is reasonable…considering it now costs £25 to get a wheel trued, I might get a shock

    alwillis
    Full Member

    Only skimmed quickly so apologies if the original questions have already been answered. I used to work at this place and carried out up to 8 of this type of test every day of the week, so if you have any questions I’m happy to help. If it’s easier my email should be in my profile.

    Basically it boils down to picking out the right numbers from the raw data to construct training zones (which can vary depending on your goals/sport/level) and then training very specifically using those zones to improve various aspects of your physiology (e.g. Aerobic base, threshold, aerobic max, anaerobic etc). Once you have trained with the numbers for a period (2 months to a year depending on many factors) then you retest to gauge change and set new zones.

    In terms of coaching which will use data like this rather than a field test, it doesn’t generally come cheap in my experience.

    DT78
    Free Member

    Sent you a email Alex – hopefully you can understand my ramblings!

    To boil it down:

    1. Pacing, how to use the results to educate myself for suggested HR (or later power when I buy a meter) for certain length races
    2. Any recommended resources to help with constructing a training plan to improve power output / get faster

    mrblobby
    Free Member

    2 is a bit of a holy grail I think. There are so many different ideas about how to construct training plans around training zones. Friel’s book is as good as any single resource, at least it’s one consistent approach. Thousands of papers, articles and posts out there though and many many conflicting views (just start mining somewhere like timetriallingforums, there’s lots of discussion on training there with plenty of links to various papers and studies.)

    If you do sign up to TrainingPeaks they have a load of different plans that can be purchased, which would be cheaper than a coach but probably not as tailored. Though I think they do one where you can have online one 2 one time with a coach for a bit more cash. RST Sport do something similar and seem pretty well recommended on various forums.

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