Viewing 40 posts - 121 through 160 (of 164 total)
  • gone and had my van remapped ( wow )
  • trout
    Free Member

    ctk
    my thoughts too but I need the van for work Flooring installer
    not seen many petrol vans on the market .

    62 years young and planning on keeping it till retirement

    what is the possibility that engine maps have improved since my van was built and good remappers have programmed better maps for the indevidual van .

    so when the novelty of the extra power has dulled and I revert to driving like a hypermiler as it is me paying for the fuel .
    and say I get a couple of miles e tra to the gallon surly my engine is running better than when new in 2005

    I certainly dont have the dosh to replace it and would be daft to on a whim so close to getting off the tools .

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Kryton, I have never suggested chucking litter around Milton Keynes or anywhere else. Or even implied it.

    I limited my litter argument to humans with no mention of other species. And why did I limit it to humans? Because like most people I’m aware that litter can be a problem to animals but I’ve no idea how many animals are killed by litter copared to diesel soot and NOX, and not wishing to make a false statement limited my case to one of which the facts are well known, humans.

    There is no balance. Remapping to improve torque and power increases soot and NOX emissions. For some reason some people on this forum find this acceptable. I don’t, so I rightly and reasonably point out that the remappers are making a choice to deliberately increase their contribution a known cause of excess deaths.

    Society makes choices, a level of pollution is considered socially acceptable/tolerable. If you choose to deliberately modify your car to make it more polluting it’s plain anti-social.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Edukator I can appreciate your “incremental” polution argument but the number of remapped diesels is tiny and their overall impact on pollution is minimal. What is far more significant is increasing over population and urbanisation (central heating is the buggest polluter I understand as is heating our houses warm enough to be able to walk round without a jumper in winter). That plus the whole diesel episode which saw emissions willfully misstated and the EU turn a blind eye. The Americans and Japanese (and most of Asia I think) don’t really do diesels for non-commercial vehicles. We where duped.

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middling Edition

    Fresh Goods Friday 696: The Middlin...
    Latest Singletrack Videos
    Kryton57
    Full Member

    my case to one of which the facts are well known, humans.

    Go, on then, ill give you ten minutes to write down a short synopsis of the impact on humankind of how littering the countryside – that if googled cant be found so could reasonably assumed to be your own knowledge, therefore proving this statement:

    I limited my litter argument to humans with no mention of other species. And why did I limit it to humans? Because like most people I’m aware that litter can be a problem to animals but I’ve no idea how many animals are killed by litter copared to diesel soot and NOX, and not wishing to make a false statement limited my case to one of which the facts are well known, humans.

    Of course, if you can’t that proves your not the true environmentalist you claim to be and are indeed trolling on the Diesel issue evidenced by ignoring any other environmental argument raised herein.

    I make that 10:07 Uk for a response *waits*

    Edukator
    Free Member

    People can read and even read back, Kryton. Their comprehension is generally pretty good too. If someone else had written your own last post what would you think of it?

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    In your shoes attempting to belittle someone whilst failing to respond to the challenge would lower my self esteem.

    I’ve proved my point, night x

    Kryton57
    Full Member

    P.S you spelled “compared” wrong. 😉

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Was it you or your computer that decided to spell “spelt” the American way, and leave the hyphen out of “self-esteem”? 😉

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    what is the possibility that engine maps have improved since my van was built and good remappers have programmed better maps for the indevidual van .

    Zilch. Nadda. Not a sausage.

    One bloke in a shed, Vs the engineering department of VAG?

    and say I get a couple of miles e tra to the gallon surly my engine is running better than when new in 2005

    No it’s not, you’ve just optimized it for something else. VAG were probably aiming to get as much power as they could without producing more pollution than allowed. You’ve just tuned it for more power.

    If you put it through the same tests as the engine would have been through when new, it would without doubt now fail them.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    what is the possibility that engine maps have improved since my van was built and good remappers have programmed better maps for the indevidual van .
    Zilch. Nadda. Not a sausage.
    One bloke in a shed, Vs the engineering department of VAG?

    Interesting detailed article about the whole fiasco…
    https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/05/volkswagen-bosch-fiat-diesel-emissions-cheats-cracked-open-in-new-research/
    Seems it wasn’t VW rather than Bosch giving them what they asked for.

    I limited my litter argument to humans with no mention of other species. And why did I limit it to humans? Because like most people I’m aware that litter can be a problem to animals but I’ve no idea how many animals are killed by litter copared to diesel soot and NOX, and not wishing to make a false statement limited my case to one of which the facts are well known, humans.

    Very conveniently ignoring the recent report about the staggering amount of plastic on one tiny, remote island that researchers have just highlighted, some of it going centimetres deep into the sand, which, along with the micro-plastics that the environment is filled with, and which are ingested by organisms the entire length of the food chain, threaten everyone and everything, not just the on the macro-scale, like marine animals and birds caught up in fishing line and net, the plastic rings that hold four-and-six-packs together, etc.
    “The ethical dwarf, posturing on the moral high-ground, presents a ludicrous spectacle”
    Oh, and the amount of filth pumped out by the world’s shipping, burning bunker oil, which is the filthiest, thickest fuel used in any transport, it’s one step up from crude, creates more pollution than all the cars currently in use around the world.
    By your reasoning, we should scrap all the commercial shipping now in use and build a fleet of wooden sailing boats.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Zilch. Nadda. Not a sausage.

    Stop sitting on the fence 🙂

    I do think that manufacturers design to general parameters, eg fuel quality which can vary greatly in target markets. Also lower spec models are deliberately lower spec, ie artificially depressed power output. As an example of sorts it was widely believed that Porsche didn’t fit a LSD into the Cayman or it would have lapped quicker than a 911 which is not acceptable for a car costing 60% of the price. IMO there is more than just emissions.

    Edukator do they re-test emissions in the Controle-Technique ? (Note thats only every 2 years too, based on the amount of French cars I see with faulty headlights/brake lights I struggle to think a 2 year test cycle is desirable). At least in the Uk we re-test to a degree and we have started checking the DPF’s are still fitted (easy to see why an owner would avoid ££££ by not replacing after discovering their “lifetime” filter had only lasted a few years)

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @count thanks for that link, tomorrows breakfast reading.

    Seems it wasn’t VW rather than Bosch giving them what they asked for.

    Classic corporate avoidance of responsibility ? Ask a contractor/third party to do something we don’t want to be caught doing ?

    aracer
    Free Member

    If they didn’t have sensors to detect changes in engine performance due to using different fuel standards, then yes, I expect they’d do that. Assuming that is they sold exactly the same car in target markets with widely varying fuel quality – I’m sure it makes sense for them to sell millions of vehicles which can cope with poor quality fuel into markets where the fuel quality is always good.

    Also lower spec models are deliberately lower spec, ie artificially depressed power output. As an example of sorts it was widely believed that Porsche didn’t fit a LSD into the Cayman or it would have lapped quicker than a 911 which is not acceptable for a car costing 60% of the price.

    That’s not a terribly relevant example – sure there are different versions of the same engine block with different power outputs, but you’ll find differences in the components other than the engine block (yes, it is a marketing thing as they can have a cheaper version for those buying to a price point and gouge money from those who want a higher spec – but they can also save a bit of money on the cheaper version by using lower spec components whilst getting economy of scale through having a common engine block).

    milleboy
    Free Member

    Porsche didn’t fit a LSD into the Cayman

    It would need drugs to make it look attractive 🙂

    Edukator
    Free Member

    By your reasoning, we should scrap all the commercial shipping now in use and build a fleet of wooden sailing boats

    That’s quite a leap, and I’m not sure how you got there by my reasoning, but yes. We should definitely be aiming at a fleet of ships that use renewable energy sources. I don’t think wood is the best material to use for their construction though.

    They do an emissions test at the contrôle technique, Jamba, but current limits are so high that a well-maintained 20-year-old diesel passes no problem.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Whilst it’s certainly right to strive for reductions in emissions to ensure continued health of people and the planet, given that the US military is apparently more polluting IN PEACE TIME than the entire civilian population, perhaps if anyone has a real concern for the welfare of their neighbours and the habitat that 7 billion odd of us are sharing, it might be worth channeling some of this outrage elsewhere…

    Edukator
    Free Member

    There’s no outrage here, there was outrage on the litter thread, “scum” etc. But here the strongest language I’ve used is “anti-social”.

    We are all collectively responsible for many polluting activities and my appeal on this thread is to not deliberately do something that will make a vehicle pollute much more than it normally would.

    There are other things we can do to reuce how much we pollute, and the more people who are prepared to do them the better. Rather than saying “everybody else pollutes as much as they can afford so why shouldn’t I?” say “I’ll do what I can to reduce how much I pollute and if everybody else does too the world will be a better place”.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    thisisnotaspoon – Member
    what is the possibility that engine maps have improved since my van was built and good remappers have programmed better maps for the indevidual van .

    Zilch. Nadda. Not a sausage.

    [/quote]

    Depends on how you define a remap, an off the shelf map flashed to your ECU, probably not much. That’s a relatively Conservative map that you can just bung on.
    But there are companies who make individual maps for individual customers, and they refine them with a laptop plugged in, In real time whilst driving rather than on a rolling road, to suit the individual customers requirements.

    Obviously this is expensive and probably only used by people really into motorsports with custom engine configurations, but there’s theoretically no reason you couldn’t specify an emphasis on economy rather than performance.

    bamboo
    Free Member

    ^ I think it’s fair to say that VAG tend to drive their cars when setting their maps, wiv laptops plugged in and everyfink

    jimjam
    Free Member

    milleboy – Member

    Porsche didn’t fit a LSD into the Cayman

    It would need drugs to make it look attractive [/quote]

    Really? I’m not a big Porsche fan boy but i think it looks pretty good.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    bamboo – Member
    ^ I think it’s fair to say that VAG tend to drive their cars when setting their maps, wiv laptops plugged in and everyfink

    Yes but you’ve missed my point.. They have specific breif to suit most customers under a wide range of conditions, and achieve a reasonable level of efficiency resulting in a one size fits all map.

    A 3rd party engine tuner can push the envelope further, the ecu can be fully reprogrammed according to one persons requirements rather then a manufacturer who will program it to mostly suit the requirements of millions of customers.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    but there’s theoretically no reason you couldn’t specify an emphasis on economy rather than performance

    Or even the least polluting possible. But that’s a lot harder and more complicated. You’d need real-time monitoring of NOX.

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    Mostly what they do is switch off or modify the protection features within the software (overspeed, over pressure, antiknock, emissions and so on). Then they turn everything up a bit. Fuel, air, ignition, injection timing. Then hope it doesn’t blow up. That’s the tricky bit, how far can you go without it blowing up.

    Sometimes it does.

    And it’s really, really obvious when you look at the engine.

    ulysse
    Free Member

    Or even the least polluting possible. But that’s a lot harder and more complicated. You’d need real-time monitoring of NOX

    Thats what one team do, they hire a particular car, dump the map and save it, modify a copy of the dump, flash, test, rinse repeat until it’s what they want and then re flash the unadulterated map , return the car

    johnners
    Free Member

    OP, how much did your remap bump up your insurance? Or does anyone know what the typical increase would be for a run of the mill performance remap like that?

    bamboo
    Free Member

    The point that tinas (and maxtorque earlier in the thread) made, is that the OEMs spend millions upon millions optimising emissions, fuel economy, and driveability on test rigs and testing the cars in a full range of environments around the world. They have full working knowledge of the software and all the calibration parameters- third party companies simply cannot gain this know how. I wouldn’t let anybody touch my car for this reason alone.

    Third party companies who do remaps may increase torque and power, maybe even reduce fuel consumption, but nothing comes for free – emissions will increase as a result. People are outraged at VW for cheating emissions legislation; using a remap which will be far worse is antisocial.

    ulysse
    Free Member

    If i was to do one it would cost me nowt extra on insurance, im with TWI

    ulysse
    Free Member

    But what about when OEM mappers spending millions and millions on development get it spectacularly wrong, like with the 1.6 Hdi Siemens SID 807 which was undriveable or shook the car to bits in constant speeed cruise POT in 4th gear?

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    the OEMs spend millions upon millions optimising emissions, fuel economy, and driveability on test rigs and testing the cars in a full range of environments around the world.

    Mick from Derby won’t ever drive above the arctic circle, or across the Sahara. He might even agree to only use high octane fuel, this gives an engine tuner a lot more to play with as some of the constraints are lifted.

    They have full working knowledge of the software and all the calibration parameters- third party companies simply cannot gain this know how.

    Yes they can, they are just parameters on an eprom that can be downloaded, messed about with and flashed back to the chip. Whether you trust them to know what they are doing, well that’s a different question.

    Quite an interesting article..
    http://www.motorsport-developments.co.uk/whatismap.html

    ghostlymachine
    Free Member

    But what about when OEM mappers spending millions and millions on development get it spectacularly wrong

    That’ll be the engine dev team not talking to the dressed engine team or the mounts team or the body structures team.

    Or any combination of the above.

    It happens.

    The car was probably developed around a larger, heavier engine with completely different vibration (and gearing) characteristics.

    Then the marketing team decided they needed an entry level/eco car and just slung the smallest engine they could find into the car.

    That happens too.

    Sometimes causes great surprise to the development departments when they start getting warranty/complaints about cars they’ve not even considered as a viable combination.

    bamboo
    Free Member

    from that link… 1day to do a map? Somebody should tell vw that’s all it takes, they could drastically cut their development time, and save a fortune!

    ulysse
    Free Member

    Exactly, OEM’s aren’t infallible, and neither are all tuning companies some spotty teenage tosspot banging out maps in his bedroom on a nicked copy of WinOLS

    bamboo
    Free Member

    And as somebody who writes software for vehicle powertrains for a living, sometimes we see oems changing parameters that they have no calibration guide for during development, without understanding the consequences. Fortunately we work with them and develop the calibration together which corrects such mistakes before production sign off occurs. Third party suppliers don’t get calibration guides (for IP reasons), so they are stabbing in the dark at best.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Mick from Derby won’t ever drive above the arctic circle, or across the Sahara. He might even agree to only use high octane fuel, this gives an engine tuner a lot more to play with as some of the constraints are lifted.

    Ok, let’s think about hypothetical Mick’s tuning.

    Only run on good quality, high octane fuel. So you can whack the boost up, increasing temps and increasing NOx.

    Never drives in the artic circle. That’s more an issue with making sure the diesel doesn’t solidify in the tank.

    Never drives across the sahara. A more valid point, and but again that’s more a hardware issue with specifying a different airbox.

    And…………..

    VAG will have temperature compensation in the maps and the ECU. If he drove it to the arctic circle it would probably open the EGR a bit more because it can (cold air bring with it more O2). If he drove it to the Sahara (or Colorado) it might up the boost a bit to keep the power up in spite of lower air density.

    What he does actually do though is drive around Derby. So let’s just stick with the VAG map that keeps NOx and pm10 to a minimum ehh?

    aracer
    Free Member

    It would if the manufacturers hadn’t already accounted for that – if he’s driving around Derby on high octane fuel, then the parts of the map which will work in the arctic circle, the Sahara or with low octane fuel won’t be used. You’d be amazed to find that they have sensors which can detect these things.

    I’ve not worked with ECUs on engines, but I have done lots of work with microcontrollers interfacing with hardware – sensing the envirnoment and having different parameters for different environments is trivial. If Mick is driving around Derby he’ll already have the optimum mapping for driving around Derby taking all things into account – as above, any increase in power will be at the expense of something else.

    bamboo
    Free Member

    It’s good to see some sense being spoken on stw

    giantalkali
    Free Member

    Do you mean ‘rare’?

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Sigh. It depends how you define optimum.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Of course, Mick may reckon that emissions aren’t important.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    Of course, Mick may reckon that emissions aren’t important.

    We don’t know what Micks preferences and goals are, I’m just trying to illustrate they may be different to the manufacturers generic audience.

    Micks has options with a custom map.

Viewing 40 posts - 121 through 160 (of 164 total)

The topic ‘gone and had my van remapped ( wow )’ is closed to new replies.