Having avidly followed the “How to be a credible 4th cat” thread a while back, and now been 3rd cat myself for a couple of seasons, I was wondering what it takes to become a 2nd cat? And before anyone says “40 points”, I know that bit 😉

Any relative mortals done it? And without having a massive sprint?

My mate was a large lad back when I 1st met him, a portly dher

But he really went for it and is now fcking fast

http://www.jasonburrillcycling.com/tablet/blog.html

I’ve seen two approaches.

The first is pick up a few points where ever you can and enter loads of races. Seen a few lads do it by entering the weekly crit series in addition to standard road races or travel a fair bit. Good riders but not exceptional tend to do better in 3/4s – always picking up a few points for a decent finish – handy sprinters.

Be good. Win some race or finish well in 2/3/4. Harder, requires talent but if you have it then quick. You still might need to enter a lot of races because if you go for glory you might not make it an leave with nothing.

I managed one win last year but only managed about 6 or 7 races and finished outside the points in all the other. I livened things up a bit, making moves and splitting the field. Set a few friends up for good results by getting them in moves. But didn’t get me more than 15 points. This year I still can’t do more than half a dozen without loads of travelling so I will ride like a Frenchman on Bastille day in every race.

If you can find any stage races they are good. Loads of points available as you can get points for each stage and overall. There is 2 day one in the NE and one of my club mates did a 3 day one somewhere in Yorkshire I think.

His first season 10mile TT is about my pb. Trouble is, I’m already pretty much at race weight. 🙁 I know its not all about weight but still…

Jonba’s first approach seems pretty common. And race lots from Jan to Dec.

It seemed last season that by the end of the season I’d finish in the bunch feeling like I had quite a lot left in the tank, whilst those around were gasping at a “tough” race. Either that or I’d just totally cramp up in the sprint for the line. So neither really the power to sprint or the power to sustain a getaway.

I’ve got about 10 road races planned so far and will probably do a handful of crits.

No road racing in the North West January – December…

Work on your sprint. Most races at 2/3/4 level will end in one. Either a big bunch jobby or a from a reasonable split in the field. Very rare for small groups to stay away as everyone is a privateer and chases things down.

Train your sprint. Race a lot. Race Vets races which are more tactical but slightly slower paced. Choose your races/circuits carefully.

Or settle for being a reliable third cat domestique and enter E123 and 2/3 races instead. Being a second cat does not confer any extra benefits except exemption from third cat only races. I prefer the harder races and will place mid or top third and top three of the third cats. So redefine success.

Oh and get a coach. I’m looking for Guinea pigs to finish my certification 😉

I’m not necessarily that bothered about getting to 2nd cat in itself, but would like to be at the pointy end of the race – so 2nd cat will happen by default if I’m competitive in enough races.

No one ever accused me of having a good sprint but I went from 3rd to 2nd when I was racing (raced seriously for 15yrs mostly as 2nd cat). I knew I had to get into break always and attempt to get points from them so that’s what I did. It’s damn hard but doing lots of breakaways but it makes you faster. I also rode a lot of crits in the summer which again was great for fitness.

I rode 2nd cat for a couple of seasons before switching to TTing, I would echo the advice above, unless you are a very strong sprinter work on vo2 max to help initiate and get into breaks, look at who the strongest riders in a bunch are and time your efforts in o get away with the good guys. Take risks with your tactics and prepare to fail or even go out the back on occasion. Race as much as you can on a variety of courses, work out what suits you best. The majority of races I’ve done have been won by a break sticking , tactical nous makes a massive difference . Sitting in and waiting for a bunch sprint won’t get you there unless you’re a talented sprinter (and is often where you’ll see a spill because everyone gives it a go, head down arse up, regardless of ability)

Pretty much what Jonba said.There were a couple of club lads (who were pretty poor 3rds tbh ,who raced 3 or 4 times a week for 10 months to scrape out 41 points and then proclaimed they were above racing 2/3/4’s as they were too good now 😕 .If you hav’nt got a sprint then there’s little point in hiding in the pack and coming home with plenty in the tank.The majority of the time you will fail (as 3/4’s tend be woefully negative) but it’s better to go down swinging and have a go than finish thinking ‘well that was a waste of time and petrol’.

Yes – spending lots of money on entering crits and races around country seems popular method.
From what I have seen. The move from 3rd cat to 2nd is much much easier than keeping the 2nd cat licence the 2nd year though.

I picked my races. I can climb. So I found hilly races and attacked.
Did similar for 3-2 and 2-1. Did notice that 3-2 consisted of a good few wins many podiums lots of results. 2-1 was one or two wins. A handful of podiums/top 10s and lots of riding back to the HQ on my own with snot down my front.
1-E consists of getting your head kicked in and nipping the odd point here and there. Mainly as there are less races and everyone there is good.

A handful of podiums/top 10s and lots of riding back to the HQ on my own with snot down my front.

“Off the front or out the back” same here. Prefer to go to races to race. I can do a chaingang otherwise with riders less likely to take me out.

I prefer 2/3/4 to 3/4 but just get a kicking in E/1/2/3 so don’t bother. Even 2/3/4 feel so much safer than 3/4 because the standard of rider is higher and the chancers and novices get dropped. I don’t find there is actually much of a difference in fitness in the riders. More tactics and more intelligent racing (timings of breaks etc.). Maybe the guys on the podium are stronger as they are heading to E/1 licenses but the majority are just more experienced.

I went 2nd cat in 2009 and pretty hard hated the following few years, as from going from winning races going to ‘finished in the bunch’ or getting canned 100k into a premier calendar there was a significant drop in morale! Point being, make sure you’ve considered what you really want from bike racing!

Back then being able to sprint was good, but now every man and his dog races bikes, and every man and their dog thinks they’re mark cavendish, races negatively for 80k and then tries to sprint for 150m at the end to get 2 points. This considered I’d advise there are much better ways of winning races now so don’t worry if you’re not naturally good in a sprint.

Don’t worry about ‘chasing breaks’ ‘doing loads of work’ ‘being active’ etc etc as these are just very simple ways of ensuring you have nothing left for the pointy end. There’s nothing that grates my cheese more than guys saying they didn’t get a result ‘but they did loads of work early on and were dead active’ …..you’re not a professional, you buy your own bike and pay your own entries so why chase down guys that have the minerals to try go up the road and then just sit up? You’re not paid to do that, you’re racing to get a result. Negative!

My advice would be just lurk around a race for a couple of hours and then on the last lap put all your eggs in one basket and have one do or die at going clear solo, forming a little group, or crossing to an already established group. If you cross to an established group you’ll be f’kd but likely the most fresh. Yes if everybody raced like that it would be a very slow and boring race but just have faith that there will be loads of over aroused guys at the front chasing each other down and going through and off with 80k to go.

Don’t lurk too far back!

Did one race in Belgium where the second or third roundabout in the race, turning across the wind split the race. 15-20 guys in the first echelon.

Didn’t see them again.

Second group about 25 strong on the road was basically trying to catch them for 150km. Ended up being followed by the broom wagon for the last 100km. Quarter of an hour down……. The other 100+ guys in the race pretty much got left to fend for themselves/eliminated!

Any credible 3rd cat can get to 2nd by racing week in week out.

However this:

Being a second cat does not confer any extra benefits except exemption from third cat only races.

And this:

The move from 3rd cat to 2nd is much much easier than keeping the 2nd cat licence the 2nd year though.

Unless you’re regularly contending the win in 3/4s and holding your own in 2/3/4s then you’re going to come back down to cat 3 with a bump the next year.

That’s not a reason not to do it of course…

I’m not necessarily that bothered about getting to 2nd cat in itself, but would like to be at the pointy end of the race

I’d suggest that’s the right approach. I’ve seen lots of people who obsess over getting a licence category, and run around scraping points everywhere. If that’s your target, great, but it can be a bit like getting an award for regular attendance.

Racing is about trying to win, and I would always encourage people to aim for the best result they can get in specific target events, rather than consistent point bagging. Nothing beats getting on that podium, and hopefully getting over the line first.

A licence category only matters if it is stopping you entering the races you want to do. I never got past 1st cat, but that didn’t stop me from riding anything I wanted to, including Elite races.

It sounds like you are on the right track. Get yourself some specific targets, race hard, and the points will take care of themselves. Good luck!

Ghostly machine, agreed.

However there is a difference here to racing 90degree corners in belg with ripping winds, to racing UK 3rd cat level. The racing dynamics I’d argue, for the majority of situations, are pretty different.

2/3 races are much more likely to NOT end in a bunch sprint compared to a 3/4 race. 2nd cats know how to race and understand that if you get in a break then your chances of a good placing are so much higher. The difference between the slower riders and the faster riders is more so breaks can be forced clear especially on hilly circuits.

I have been a 2nd cat for the last 4 years and as a former elite category rider I think the average 2nd cat is a very good rider these days with plenty of power meters and coaches around.

I only do a few races so I try and focus on them and really try for a good result. I only have to get 25 points to keep it. Don’t want to be a 3rd cat 😆

Ghostly machine, agreed.

except where you have badly organised chasing groups……. which is all over the place in 3rd cat.

Yeah, I’m realistic, having been dropped numerous times in my first season as a 4th cat and still dropped as a 3rd in crits that didn’t suit me.

I don’t have the spare time to go chasing points, so if it happens then fair enough, if it doesn’t then I won’t be any worse off for trying.

still dropped as a 3rd in crits that didn’t suit me

Don’t take this the wrong way, but 3rd cat is where you belong for now then. If you improve stratospherically as the season goes on then reassess your goals.

I found the categories came as i raced more and got better. So really its about getting good miles in and depending on what racing your doing training for that, if you want to be getting away in road races then getting good long miles with chain gangs etc and maybe doing some TT’s to give you that breakaway ability. If you want to be doing well in crits then keeping the miles fairly low but doing sprints / pace changing and power efforts. To get points it boiled down to racing lots, twice a week through summer and the points will roll in.

Getting dropped in crits was last summer. I wasn’t dropped in any of the road races I did after April and was then finishing feeling like I had a lot left.

I’ve had a solid winter of training and whilst its not the be all and end all, reading the forum and listening to my coach, I should have the power figures to compete at the sharp end of 3rd cat.

Just seeing how other people have done it, I’ll soon find out if its unrealistic.

I should have the power figures to compete at the sharp end of 3rd cat.

What are these power figures out of interest? Is it your FTP? Or is some other power number more useful?

I guess I’m interested as a couple of mates race; one of them has done a few before, the other just decided to give it a proper go this year, although he doesn’t ride his bike much anymore. Not a clue how much power he has, or what type is needed. I know the other did an FTP test about three weeks ago and his power was just shy of 340 Watts, at about 65kg (at a guess); I’m assuming this is enough to compete in Cat 3/4?

FTP will get you to the finish. It won’t get a you a “finish”. You need a decent 1 minute power of 7-8 Watts/kg. FTP is the figure everybody measures before they race 😉

Reckon you can be competitive on a lot less (and conversely not be competitive with a lot more!) It’s really how you use it. Experience and raceccraft. Also much of it is repeated short hard efforts and how quickly you recover, which FTP doesn’t really tell you much at all about. You can’t just turn up at a cat 4 crit with a big FTP and expect to ride away from the pack. But that’s all in the credible cat 4 thread.

lso much of it is repeated short hard efforts and how quickly you recover, which FTP doesn’t really tell you much at all about.

I remember reading this about laurens ten dam. Apparently he had/has one of the highest FTP figures in the peleton but his anaerobic capacity is very low in comparison. Presumably this is all about repeatability. FTP figures don’t tell you that

My FTP and 5min peak power are alright and what I have specifically tested in training so far this winter. Haven’t started working on 1minute power yet for this season. Don’t think I’m far off 7w/kg for 1 minute though.

It does seem that the ability to quickly recover from repeated attacks and short term power will as useful if not more useful than FTP though

😆 Well done you 😀 Was your 28:30 10 done before or after you got more powerful. Or do you just do very few 10s?

Well done you

It’s not me BTW! I honestly don’t really have any idea. Someone once said to me that anything over 300W is pretty good, although there was no mention of what weight this was at.

My other mate who barely rides did enter and win his first race last year, just by pootling round and then winning the sprint. His plan was to have a proper go this year, although his first race some guy fell off in front of him causing him to fall and crack his frame 🙁

340W FTP at 65 kilos is enough (theoretically) to compete at national elite level. But i reckon you knew this anyway and are trolling again…… 😉

😀

All I know is he’s pretty fit but often doesn’t compete as well as I hope/reckon he could do. Which made me think perhaps everyone is at a similar level. I know he loses lots of watts on his TT bike, I think due to the position that he has yet to figure out. He’s been meant to have been getting a bike fit for about the last two years, but still hasn’t got round to it I don’t think.

Let’s just say if he could out 5.2W/kg on his TT bike then he’d be in with a good chance of contesting the national champs.

340 watts and a reasonable CdA… you’d do ok at club and open TT (maybe podium at smaller events). You’d be way down at the National unless you had a very good CdA.

@ghostlymachine….28.30 for a 10? Not me – last season I hovered just below 24 minutes and my last 10mile was about 23.30 (last August).