This thread is on the edge of being closed and there are some contributors who are on the verge of being banned for quite some time.

Is this to be another example of what you term 'muscular debate'?

No. I'm taking the piss.

Oh, O.K. I wouldn't want that again. I shall manfully resist all further provocations to combat and not mention "spiritual" matters again. For quite some time.

Talkemada, did you actually read that einstein quote you posted? 😆

Fair play, I suppose I was asking for it.

Fighting AND religion – who would ever have put those two together?

Surely applying a sexual preposition to god is highly inappropriate ? God must be an 'it' (or if a Trinity, 'them')

See, you've woken him up as well!

Talkemada, did you actually read that einstein quote you posted?

Yes, I did. Einstein states that he believes in 'Spinoza's God', or 'Nature'. This has been (mis)interpreted as Eintein not believing in any God, and atheists often gleefully claim Einstein as 'one of them', but this is not true, and I don't think Einstein claimed to be an atheist.

I myself believe in a similar concept; to me, 'God' is not some 'being' comprehendible in Human terms, but perhaps the whole meaning, reason and energy behind the existence of everything. It works for me.

I thought that said 'proposition' at first 😳

What is a 'Resident Grumpy'? Is it some form of exalted membership status? How does one attain such an ethereal position? 😀

Oh, and we should all try to respect one another a bit more. Please, enough with the name calling, eh? This has been a fascinating, enjoyable and highly stimulating 'discussion'. Let's keep it that way!

people get so heated about the silliest of things.Life really is too short for all this s**t so may I just say to all of the STW collective whatever you believe, in the words of Bill and Ted "Be excellent to each other. And… PARTY ON, DUDES!"

I suspect one achieves Resident Grumpiness after spending too much time producing a mag and running a forum for what occasionally seems to be a bunch of ingrates…

Down with this sort of thing.

and that's even to the moderators who make the thought police from 1984 seem reasonable xx

what existed before our know universe was created? I can never get my head around it, for something to be created there must have been something before it to create it and something before that….. an on and on and on……

Talkemada – now i see! i quite like spinoza's panpsychism. i just don't see 'god' in it 🙂

What is a 'Resident Grumpy'? Is it some form of exalted membership status? How does one attain such an ethereal position?

not so much membership as ownership 🙂 Achieved by starting your own popular mountain bike magazine ?

rs – Member

what existed before our know universe was created? I can never get my head around it, for something to be created there must have been something before it to create it and something before that….. an on and on and on……

Yes. It's a brain twister. Try imagining nothing. Not nothing as in "the blackness of space without matter", because space itself is a "something". I mean, actual NOTHING. I tried it once and I felt like my brain was trying to turn inside out.

As to what was it? Well – the answer of course is, we don't know.

Yet.

One can debate the existance of the God-erator
But not the existance of the mod-erator. 😉

He's the landlord of the pub your "drinking" in, if you understand the terrible metaphor

Another way to look at it is to say that consciousness is primary, and that out of consciousness is manifested matter. That physicists and scientists insist that matter is primary and that somehow consciousness arises out of matter is in fact a metaphysical assumption. Science has naff all to say about consciousness and can not at present explain it.

[/quote] what existed before our know universe was created? I can never get my head around it, for something to be created there must have been something before it to create it and something before that….. an on and on and on……

It shows what a nonsense our notion of time and cause and effect are.

Does there have to be a before?
We are basically monkeys, evolved monkeys, but monkeys nonetheless, and we think in pretty straight lines, so the idea of nothing at all is pretty far out…
Hence, I hesitate to suggest, religion and the persistence of the spiritual..

I think that science tries very hard to explain consciousness, though the study is relatively young, and mostly a concern for biologists, not physicists. The fact that something is hard to explain, does not mean that its not worth trying.
I haven't heard of anything concrete from religion at all.

Does there have to be a before?

How can there not be? If something exists now there must have been something that existed to create it before. I don't believe there could ever have been nothing but then I can't explain that whatever holds our universe just exists infinitely 😕

Equally though, there also HAS to be, logically, 'a before god'

There does not have to be a before if time does not exist. If time is just a phenomena of our limited perceptual capabilities, then there only ever is the now. A few physicists have developed quantum theories that take time out of the equation so to speak.

Talkemada – now i see! i quite like spinoza's panpsychism. i just don't see 'god' in it

God's just a word, though, used to describe the indescribable. Various attempts have been made to reify God, but there's never been a universal consensus, hence all the arguments…

Exactly.

The tao which is named as the tao is not the tao!

Does there have to be a before?
How can there not be?

it seems no particular contradiction for time to have started – after all, the only alternative was for it always to have been, which is just as incomprehensible (to me at least). To my mind creation and god/s are kind of irrelevant to us being here now – we're in the time that we have so we might as well make the most of it!

It maybe that conciousness and self are illusions or properties that evolved to improve the performance of the species. Religion maybe too. As maybe belief in father christmas.

As a religious person I find it interesting the length people go to prevent their kids finding out about the truth of Santa claus when they scoff at the value in having faith in God. 🙂

there was a remark earlier about God being worthess. Not to me it isn't. But I respect that your experiences might be different to mine. Perhaps you could reciprocate by not being quite so rude?

I notice many with strongly spiritual beliefs like to mention quantum physics as a 'science crutch' to strengthen their arguments.
That doesn't mean too much though, even quantum physicists are not blind to the loops their theories (please note) are tying them in, and the close resemblance to philosophy
Much of quantum mechanics is very hypothetical, and utterly untestable, so its maybe not the best science to quote.

it seems no particular contradiction for time to have started – after all, the only alternative was for it always to have been, which is just as incomprehensible (to me at least).

I agree,it is all incomprehensible, interesting to think about though.

To my mind creation and god/s are kind of irrelevant to us being here now – we're in the time that we have so we might as well make the most of it!

I agree with this too 🙂

It maybe that conciousness and self are illusions or properties that evolved to improve the performance of the species

but what does that mean ? Surely for there to be an illusion, there must be something having the illusion – so all the idea achieves is a shift of the location of the consciousness. In any case, I don't think it matters – if the illusion is as realistic and selfconsistent as it appears, it'll do for me and I shall not trouble over who is having it 🙂 Descartes has it.

Oh FFS! This thread has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime.

Let's have the fighting back!

heard about him but I have never met him

Who the Fug is he, this god geeza btw

Let's have the fighting back!

Nah, let's all drop some acid, and, like get spiritual, man…

silverpigeon – Member

Oh FFS! This thread has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime.

Let's have the fighting back!

I refer you to the comment from the Honourable Member for Grumpy (South).

How about a group hug then?