Gross and maybe even offensive generalisation…

certainly easier to say that than defend religious views of homosexuality which are actually offensive

Atheism isn’t based on proven facts though

Indeed its based on the absence of facts to support the alternative – ie the religious have no evidence and this is indeed a major weakness in their account..well spotted.

– it’s based on a belief in a lack of proven facts…

proven facts are not beliefs and that is a proven fact 😯

Are you saying it is a more credible position to believe in things we have no evidence of ?
That is a limitless class of events – you are being controlled by a an invisible lizard from peru that speaks french and only ever walks backwards
Mine is a dog from wales the size of kentucky
Dont let the lack of proven facts dissuade you from this obvious truth

I don’t think I would call your beliefs stupid. What’s the point of doing that?

Very little but its still a stupid belief* you hold as there is no evidence to support it

Would you respect my universe view quoted above or is it stupid?

* its alos very rude and not something i would say outside of stw so i only comment as you have in general I do have more respect than that but the view is still wrong.

Whenever I hear the live and let live line I think of this

Homophobia & subjugation of woman: By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians.

Do you really think this?

well god does but I think we all know many [western] followers largely ignore it even if their book and leaders dont

So the comment “By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians” is false then ?

God doesn’t just hate gays and women.

ok ernie only the good ones are the bad ones 😉

What did JC say about how gays should be treated? Or women? Just curious.

I see what you did there junkyard 🙂 tres bien.

Very little about women and nothing directly about gays that I am aware of.

Not scholarly/informed enough to fully comment to be fair

Me neither, hence asking.

Perhaps there was some much more important stuff?

A poster on here has a lovely essay on the gay issue – he is a baptist preacher iirc – and he argues that the fact that Jesus said nothing about it indicates that he deemed it unimportant and you should take his broad message of love and tolerance and say the Good Samaritan and apply this. However, unlike say an eye for an eye he never recanted it directly so its still open for debate as there is nothing of note.
A similar view is taken of women in that they are more prevalent in the Bible than elsewhere but agian there is nothing one way or the other

With very few exceptions this thread is an astonishing morass of ignorance. On both sides.

I’ve never heard of Physic changing when things scale up, down to the atomic level yes, but never as things get bigger; that’s one *huge* leap of faith.

No it is an argument of statistics not physics. The overall tends to one outcome but within that system there are chances that individual components will go against the general trend. So while we represent a decrease in entropy as we are more ordered than a random collection of atoms in general we are statistically insignificant both in mass and time scale to the universe. We are background noise on the universe scale.

I’m intrigued about fission now. Surely building up of the heavier elements is an increase in entropy?

which are actually offensive

Offence is a very subjective subject though. You are stating that a particular point of view is offensive as a fact. It may be offensive to you but not to someone else. Some people go out of their way to be offended by anything, other people don’t.

With very few exceptions this thread is an astonishing morass of ignorance. On both sides.

The main exception being what FeeFoo said above, on this page. The best post of the thread.

Would you respect my universe view quoted above or is it stupid?

Absolutely Junky. I think it’s more important to respect the fact that people have and can have differing views than what the views themselves are.

joolsburger – Member
Whenever I hear the live and let live line I think of this

I don’t belong to a religion and would say that tolerance is one of my key values, I can see where you are coming from.

Yes, that rings a bell junkyard. I don’t recall who though.

FeeFoo – Member
It seems that people generally prefer an absolute.
That’s why the religious are pretty unshakeable and the same goes for the atheists.
It’s not an intelligent state to be in, no matter which end of the spectrum you place yourself.
The cliche that having an open mind means you’ll believe anything is absurd. It just means you have sufficient confidence to have no need of an absolute position to feel secure.

Amen. I think that dogma and extremism are pretty valueless – no matter in what sphere.

I don’t recall who though.

kja78

There is either a god or there is not a god and one is true and one is false. I am not sure why you would be that uncertain about the nature of reality.

Offence is a very subjective subject though. You are stating that a particular point of view is offensive as a fact. It may be offensive to you but not to someone else. Some people go out of their way to be offended by anything, other people don’t.

Your prevaricating again and trying to debate me rather than the issue now. Finding the biblical view that homosexuality is an abomination punishable by death is not really searching for offence it just is offensive unless of course you think its ok to kill folk you disagree with in which case its brilliant and to be respected.

I think it’s more important to respect the fact that people have and can have differing views than what the views themselves are.

Really – some views are just irrational unevidenced gibberish – or in my case absolutely fabricated . If you want to respect all views equally then fine
i prefer to respect the right ones and disrespect the wrong ones….see also racism.

So, if condemning homosexuals and demeaning women isn’t the crux of Christianity (and does this also mean they’re not all insistent that the world was created in a literal six days?), what is its main point?

I would prefer to hear the views of someone who knows what they’re talking about, rather than those people who seem completely fixated on one or two subjects that the religion itself apparently doesn’t seem to think are that important.

EDIT A general query, not a direct reply to the post above.

Good recall ernie!

Flounces anyway 😉

That was easier than I thought…

So, if condemning homosexuals and demeaning women isn’t the crux of Christianity

There are a lot of people on here desperate for that to be the case. Sadly for them however it isn’t. It’s amazing how utterly fixated some people are with the homosexuality thing and a few lines in the Bible. It’s like they really, really want someone from the CoE to say all gays should be burned alive. Sorry to disapoint you, but if you were to turn up at a church and say “Hi, I’m gay” you’d be welcomed with open arms. I’ve never met a Christian person in my life who gives two hoots what someone’s sexuality is.

And if Christianity is so demeaning to women why do so many women attend church? Again, wanting something to be true because it suits your argument dosn’t actually make it so.

Your prevaricating again and trying to debate me rather than the issue now. Finding the biblical view that homosexuality is an abomination punishable by death is not really searching for offence it just is offensive unless of course you think its ok to kill folk you disagree with in which case its brilliant and to be respected.

You’re confusing what is written in the Bible with what the vast majority of Christian people believe. I’ve never met anyone who believes that homosexuality is an abomination punishable by death. I’ve met plenty people however who, for some reason, desperately want Christians to actually believe it.

So, if condemning homosexuals and demeaning women isn’t the crux of Christianity

Yeah but the bible can be interpreted to suit your agenda, and a few words written a very long time ago in an ancient language can be taken out of context to prove your point, see 5thElefant’s posts for example.

Here’s the thread where kja78 explains things from his perspective :

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-read-the-bible/page/4#post-4848695

And here’s some Catholics who don’t appear to be ‘on message’ :

Welcome from the LGBT Catholics Westminster Pastoral Council. Our community is welcoming and open to all Catholics, with an active fellowship of many lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered Catholics, as well as their parents, families and friends.

The best post of the thread

Personally I thought gonefishin’s comment about falsifiability was the most pertinent of the whole thread. But if we followed that then we couldn’t have an argument which is what we’re all here for isn’t it?

some views are just irrational unevidenced gibberish

In your opinion. Other folk are more open minded. If you’d told an ancient Roman about the Internet he have thought you were talking gibberish.

So, if condemning homosexuals and demeaning women isn’t the crux of Christianity (and does this also mean they’re not all insistent that the world was created in a literal six days?), what is its main point?

my sister is a preacher or minister in training, not 100% sure TBH, we sometimes discuss religion with her, the problem is I try to talk in logic and she repeatedly talks in religion. Tricky one to discuss I reckon – we’re normally a bit tipsy before we’re daft enough to stray onto the subject of religion anyway, which doesn’t help either.

You’re confusing what is written in the Bible with what the vast majority of Christian people believe

😯
that is very funny , its not me who is confused about gods message its them
God it pretty clear unless you think

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

is open to interpretation.

i think the roman would ask me for proof – have they manged to get in the last 2000 years for god?

You’re confusing what is written in the Bible with what the vast majority of Christian people believe.

i hear the BNP have got some really good policies on creating better cycle infrastructure do you think I should vote for them next election? Or should I remember the other stuff they spout that kinda pisses me off and steer clear?

How pick n mix can you be with religion? I seem to recall there’s quite a few religious types who say you’re not allowed to. Also if so many believers disagree with those nasty homophobic/sexist (amongst others, that birth control bit for eg.) sections of their chosen religion why haven’t the leaders listened to their flock and officially repealed those bits?

I’ve never met a Christian person in my life who gives two hoots what someone’s sexuality is.

i have, but as I inferred, I know a lot of religious people don’t tow/agree with the line on a lot of things so why is the official line still old testament? Or did I misremember and all the religions were saying “yeah gay marriage, that’s a good idea” a few months back?

Here’s the thread where kja78 explains things from his perspective

His gist seems to be that we should consider what’s written in context. Seems sensible.

So the leaders of all the christian denominations which don’t call for the death sentence for homosexuality are wrong ? And Junkyard is right in how the bible should be interpreted ? Well that makes sense.

God it pretty clear unless you think is open to interpretation.

Seems pretty clear. But I think most christians are actually pretty nice, and they’d see the above and probably think “that’s a bit of a bad thing to do, I don’t think we’ll bother”

It’s a book that was written years ago, it’s not an instruction manual for life. If people take positive things from it then that’s fine by me,.

Are you asking me? I dunno 🙂 I’m still trying to work out who thinks what, I’m not answering questions!

Were you asking me whether I was asking you ? If so no, I was asking Junkyard. Although it was a rhetorical question so I wasn’t really asking anyone.

Me? Yes. Someone else, I dunno? What?

I’m off to bed, my ‘adorable’ toddler had me up at 5 this morning to watch Horrid Henry and I’m spent.