geoffj – Member

“Of course, this opens the can of worms around whether more folk at Gentress is a good idea in the round. I can understand that some are going to be aggrieved about greater traffic and not being able to go at the speed they choose to in some parts”

My worry’s sustainability, the red and blue are already armoured up pretty much as heavily as they can be round most of their length and still get knocked to bits. That much traffic really restricts what you can build and how you build it- without more options to spread the traffic it’ll be a problem. You see it already obviously but increase the pressure on the trails and it’ll only get worse.

Okay my turn for my ramblings, sorry they are so long

I am a big fan of what E&T have done down there in developing a facility for us bikers from the pressure suit brigade all the way through to family day trippers. They have worked hard on the café the shop and clubs and events and they have been responsible of making what we see today as GT.

The FC want to encourage more walkers etc I can understand this the forest is for more than us bikers however they have invested all this money in the building but I haven’t seen anything being spent on the walking trails. Go the Whinlatter and look at the variety of walking trails for all abilities, where is that at GT. Whinlatter works as a multi discipline centre as its on the Lake District and has lots of holiday makers on its door step to attract it also has a Go APE to attract people as well. GT is in the borders not a major holiday destination and who from Edinburgh and Glasgow is going to drive past Dobbies to get to GT to walk a couple of trails and eat cake, theres not even a garden centre there.

For me we are lucky in Scotland we all have a vast variety of places to ride from trail centres to back country trails. When I choose to go to GT its for several reasons the trails being one the café another, however I’m not fussed if its in some portacabin I have my coffee or in some glitzy building. This I think is one of the problems for the FC most of us bikers the, Audi drivers excluded, don’t care where we stop, we care more about the people and the food. This is what E&T recognised and provided all those years ago.

I think the FC have a grand plan for GT to make it into the borders premier tourist attraction which is great but there numbers are way to optimistic 300,00 and growing that’s 821 people per day. Given that is not open everyday due to snow that’s a huge number of people to go through every day that its open. FC have split their numbers 200,000 bikers 100,00 walkers. I cant see them getting 100,00 walkers (273 per day) I hope whoever wins the tender hasn’t based there business plan on those numbers otherwise it might not go to well for them.

As for what we can do, I don’t think picketing the new peel centre is not the right thing to do, I think we do two things firstly we vote with out feet and support the Hub park in the old car park and use their facilities, buy the coffee and cake. This is the best way of showing the FC what we want. Then secondly we can write to our local MPS/ MSPS and the FC complaining about the decision. Who knows if the new business cant survive the summer things might change for the better.

Skipping through the posts I really feel for you lot. Having an incompetent FS/FC is just awful. All the trails they build and maintain for you – a terrible situation. Now they are meddling with the places where you eat? That’s just too cruel.

We are lucky over here (Ireland) as we get to build our own trails (sometimes they don’t even get demolished) and we get to bring a sandwich, banana and some fizzy pop with us.

Good post EURO, put’s it into context.

Nick 8)

Surrounded By Zulus – Member
I wouldn’t say that it’s fair to assume that the people running the new cafe will do a better or worse job the the current lot. It really is one of those things that we’ll just have to wait and see about.

I also dont get the god like status that is awarded to the food that they supply at the hub. It’s no different in quality to stuff you get in any decent cafe.

+1

A blockade do you think the hub would keep the protesters fed and watered all day ?????

Not sure I’ve heard anyone give the food god like status. But it’s decent enough stuff and at a reasonable price. I’ve paid more for worse elsewhere. I don’t see the numbers at GT increasing much more. I think a lot of us probably use it less than we used to, probably in part down to its popularity. Will be interesting to see what the visitor centre is going to be like that is going to make it attractive to other users. I think they should have invested more money into the trails to try and bring more MTBers and money in.

I like the hub, ok its expensive but so are most cafes in the hills these days.
On the odd occasion I visit Glentress every year I will continue using the hub while it is open, and once it passes I will probably use the new one for a post ride coffee and cake – I will however go in there covered head to foot in mud, just to remind them of why this place is popular.

I have been like that in the Hub and have never been moaned at.

It is sad, those ladies have done so much for the trail centre, that they did not get the tender.

Very interesting to read this – I used to ride at GT in 1989/1990 when i lived in the ‘burgh and woudl ride to and from there. Facilities back then were, erm, there were midges and a gate from memory and some shingle roads. I went back last year and rode there twice while on holiday and spent a bit of time observing the business sides of it as it interested me having read a bit about what was going on.

It’s almost become a victim of its own success and FC obviously are under pressure to ‘share’ the success of the location. I’d be interested to see how the creation of hiking mixes with walking, it would probably be better to invest in some more trails and divert walkers to less ‘sanitised’ areas. But then people are generally lazy these days and want it all on a plate (no pun intended there) – easy parking for the Audi, easy but challenging trails to walk on/bike on (but nothing dangerous except well signposted dangerous bits with no risk), a good cafe that serves plentiful cheap food – organic if possible, hot showers, day spa. And no extra charges for parking or infrastrcuture.

Quite honestly its the users that need to take a long hard look at themselves – your expectations of what you ‘get’ are out of whack. Splurging 10mill on a ‘visitors centre’ is clearly the end of some form of ulterior motive or utterly crazy business plan. If they seriously think those numbers will come I would eat my hat. Whats the roading authority got on its business plan for infrastrcuture to/from Peebles/GT – does it support these numbers.

As a long time tenderer for projects all I can say is you win some you lose some. Sometimes the ones you lose you do for a reason and if they have projections that you think are utter errrse then all that will happen is the business will fail and everyone will lose.

Interesting, but then I’m used to our trail centres here where a tap is a bonus ! (And I’m not complaining).

If they are going to try and encourage walkers, horsie folk, families etc to go to Glentress then I can see lots of trouble ahead. With the access laws as they are this will surely lead to all manner of collisions. People walking up biking trails etc.

If they are going to try and encourage walkers, horsie folk, families etc to go to Glentress then I can see lots of trouble ahead. With the access laws as they are this will surely lead to all manner of collisions. People walking up biking trails etc

Hmmm, tis possible I agree; but as Glentress used to be a popular place for walkers and horse riders who possibly feel they’ve been pushed away, maybe they’re trying to re-dress the balance?

There are still horse and walkers trails there. It will take management but its not impossible to keep ’em separate

There’s still walkers too. But tbh I’m not really sure why you’d go walking at GT, it’s crowded and the paths are nothing special. It’ll take more than a cafe to change that I think

But tbh I’m not really sure why you’d go walking at GT

Wouldn’t be my cup of tea either for walking, but I do know of (older) people who have stopped going there because of the bikes; they can be a vocal lot.

There are still horse and walkers trails there. It will take management but its not impossible to keep ’em separate

agree

Kit – try and keep OT eh? You seem obsessed with CV.

I’m not going to get any further involved in my opinion of CV, so yes, let’s get back on topic:

I hope you dont find yourself in the situation where the future of your business is uncertain whilst someone makes a few cheap shots on an internet forum, thinly disguising them as humour using smileys.

Tracey and Emma have known for (counts fingers) ooh, probably 4 or 5 years that they would have to tender for the cafe. And unless they were phenomenally dim (which I seriously doubt they are), they would not have assumed for one minute that their continued business was a shoe-in. Ergo, they will have made contingency plans, looked at alternatives and so on. Personally, I’m sorry to see them go too, but I think they were afforded a spectacular opportunity by the FC at the right time to develop GT, and as such their success is as much to do with the FC’s efforts as theirs (that I can see), and as such are in the position to dictate how the forest develops. If they believe that the best way forward is without the Hub, then that’s their call.

There’s no reason why E & T can’t take their business model and apply it elsewhere, so while I was being flippant in my comment about them/CVDG in partnership, is there not potential to find new partners to develop trails elsewhere in the country and demonstrate that they don’t need the FC to establish a quality destination?

Alternatively, Innerleithen is crying out for a cafe and decent toilets, so maybe they could negotiate a deal to provide services there instead?

>Quite honestly its the users that need to take a long hard look at themselves – your expectations of what you ‘get’ are out of whack. Splurging 10mill on a ‘visitors centre’ is clearly the end of some form of ulterior motive or utterly crazy business plan. If they seriously think those numbers will come I would eat my hat.<

I agree – in my view this is taking the ‘outdoor experience’ in completely the wrong direction. The private sector could have built a fanstastic building for a fraction of the cost and we’d still have had change left over to beef up the trail network and deliver facilities elsewhere. Facilities which could actually have made a real difference to net mtb participation…

In my view this is a small Tourism project which has simply got out of hand – it wont produce a net gain in mtb participation because there’s a mobilty issue with the location.

I’m not going to get any further involved in my opinion of CV
Great news. I was worried I might have to correct you for a third time on the crap you’ve trotted out twice previously.

Don’t believe all you’ve heard from your source. Might turn out to be as unreliable as TJs…

:), natch.

Heather Bash – Member

“In my view this is a small Tourism project which has simply got out of hand – it wont produce a net gain in mtb participation because there’s a mobilty issue with the location.”

I tend to think of these things in terms of Laggans… The original spend for Laggan Wolftrax was £250000 including the overspend. That doesn’t include the upper red. So you look at money spent elsewhere and go **** ME that’s 40 Laggans. Even if it’s ace, is it as ace as 40 Laggans?

Great news. I was worried I might have to correct you for a third time on the crap you’ve trotted out twice previously

I’m more than happy to be corrected on any misinformation, however you can’t correct me on my opinion, marty.

>Even if it’s ace, is it as ace as 40 Laggans?<

Err no. Laggan is still operating out of a couple of Portakabins is it not? Sure, it’s not ideal – but it works…

All of these locations are surrounded by thousands of acres of bloody Spruce. I have to laugh when I read all this sustainability bollocks – they bought out home owners, demolished buildings and the new place is a shrine to the use of heavy construction & buidling materials which are massively energy consumptive. Supersized log cabins, Alpine style -why not? Put the money saved into developing multiple locations, local forests near local communities working in proper partnership. Then build the ‘centre of excellence’ further down the line.

I see this building thing as an arms race for the same pot of people and in all honesty I think FCS saw the new CYB VC as a p1ssing contest they simply had to win…

The walking thing is losing me, ‘cos when I was a walker the last thing I ever wanted to walk through were forests…, are the FC adding some more ‘trails’ across on the right (looking from the main road), to access onto Kirn Law – or are they there already?

As far as the cost of rental etc, maybe whoever wins will have the sense to tie this into the visitor numbers – quite common when taking on a lease in a shopping/outlet type centre, as its very difficult to be successful if the ‘landlord’ is not doing their ‘bit’ or if the numbers just don’t turn up.

I just hope that whoever specs. the decor and ‘fabrics’ remembers just how filty an MTB is after riding in a sodden GT…

There are loads of hiking trails criss-crossing GT – so it would be less a case of adding more than maybe marking out some new routes on existing trails and advertising them.

GT is nice for walking IMO – it doesn’t have great vistas once you’re up high, and it’s all high moorland out the back, but it’s a good amble through the trees. Was a bit nicer before the felling to the N of the red route climb.

If you consider that Peebles is a popular destination for the older generation, than a hiking loop up to Dunslair then back for a pint of mild would go down v well.

who from Edinburgh and Glasgow is going to drive past Dobbies to get to GT to walk a couple of trails and eat cake, theres not even a garden centre there.

Dobbies isn’t exactly on the way, nor is it much of an attraction, Tescos with plants. If you want an over priced cafe then pop in.

Yeah, personally I don’t see the appeal in walking round a forest too much although there are some exceptions. But I guess for some people they just want to turn up, follow some arrows, have a rest at a viewpoint and then get something to eat near their car and drive home again. Oh, wait a minute….. From speaking to a former employee in the area there used to be lots of people would ride their horses at Glentress years ago but they have moved on to other forests, not like there is a shortage. I remember encountering a few walkers on trails years ago but not so much recently. I do remember working on the Pie Run a few years ago when a group of ramblers appeared at the bottom of it and they were positive that it was the walkers path they were looking for and were determined to walk up it despite us telling them it wasn’t the path they thought it was. The more we told them it wasn’t the more the leader said it was, eventually one of us dropped down to the forest road and showed them on the map where they were and where they thought they were. I don’t know how you manage the situation, loads of signs everywhere telling people that they may be within their rights to walk all the paths but it would be better for their personnal safety if they didn’t use the ones where bikes may be approaching at speed? There will be a minority that are so bloody minded they’ll do it anyway. Looking at the plans for Glentress Peel it looks like a bigger, tidier version of what’s there already, no mention of anything new or extra to attract more visitors.

Ive only been riding GT since april this year and although it was overpriced I was quite happy to pay for cakes coffee etc due to the great atmosphere..not so sure to new place will have the same atmosphere 😕

I’m more than happy to be corrected on any misinformation, however you can’t correct me on my opinion, marty.
It was a “fact” that you trotted out twice, despite being corrected the first time. I don’t recall you apologising, although you did admit to a memory problem (which clearly hasn’t got better). Given that the information you posted was very likely from a document that wasn’t in the public domain at the time (see here), I think it’s safe to hazard a guess at where you saw/heard it, eh? Amuse me, was it from Leith or Corstorphine?

Anyhoo, I’ll try not to into the CV thing again on here (unless someone asks a specific question). Handed all of my papers and notes on to someone doing some research earlier in the year. Very much a full stop for me.

That full stop doesn’t prevent me from commenting on other issues in the mtb / FCS / trailbuilding area though. Spending several years working on the CVDG project (and on races and events elsewhere) does give me a pretty good view of what’s gone on, what’s going on and where things look like they’re headed. I don’t comment on things I know little or nothing about (unlike some others on here).

HTH, HAND, etc.

inbred – I think the FC have a grand plan for GT to make it into the borders premier tourist attraction which is great but there numbers are way to optimistic 300,00 and growing that’s 821 people per day. Given that is not open everyday due to snow that’s a huge number of people to go through every day that its open. FC have split their numbers 200,000 bikers 100,00 walkers. I cant see them getting 100,00 walkers (273 per day) I hope whoever wins the tender hasn’t based there business plan on those numbers otherwise it might not go to well for them.

NZCol – Splurging 10mill on a ‘visitors centre’ is clearly the end of some form of ulterior motive or utterly crazy business plan. If they seriously think those numbers will come I would eat my hat.

Heather Bash – In my view this is a small Tourism project which has simply got out of hand – it wont produce a net gain in mtb participation because there’s a mobilty issue with the location.

I would tend to agree. Although it is possible to say that the above feelings are negative and not progressive, I think it is sometimes easy for these projects that use OPM (other peoples money) to spiral a bit away from reality. Would a private investor sunk this much money into this? Ten million pounds to sell cakes and a campsite?

Also, for those that think the Hub will still be there – remember the lease runs out, what will happen is E+T will be kicked out, the portacabin will close and be knocked down, and the whole lot will be paved over for car parking.

Its the visitor figure being touted about that just don’t make any sense. 200,000 bikers a year works out at about 550 a day.

On a busy summers weekend I could just about believe that there are 550 bikers using GT a day, on a wet Tuesday in October I’d be suprised if it was 50.

So where are all these extra people going to appear from?

I don’t recall you apologising, although you did admit to a memory problem (which clearly hasn’t got better).

I don’t comment on things I know little or nothing about (unlike some others on here).

Well, now that I have been roundly put in my place over the matter, I wholeheartedly and unreservedly offer my sincere and complete apologies to you personally, and the other members of the CVDG team, for spreading malicious and damaging lies and misinformation, which have clearly caused some personal distress to you. I can only hope that you accept this apology in good faith that it was never my intention to directly offend or affront those involved in the project. Furthermore, I wish you all the best in future trail-building endeavours, should you decide to undertake them.

Yours,
Kit

>So where are all these extra people going to appear from? <

Depends, to some extent, on what retail experience you present the cake hunters with. Look at House of Bruar for example.

Its the visitor figure being touted about that just don’t make any sense. 200,000 bikers a year works out at about 550 a day.

As Emma pointed out, to support the figures would require 502 cars a day and there is only 200 spaces, even if each space is ‘turned over’ twice it still falls short. And Emma was being kind by equalising the car fall over 365 day.

On a busy summers weekend I could just about believe that there are 550 bikers using GT a day, on a wet Tuesday in October I’d be suprised if it was 50.

Exactly which means the shortfall (say 2 days worth, which would be 1000 odd cars) would need to be made up on others days\weekends and as we know there isn’t enough carparking.

So where are all these extra people going to appear from?

I think it is in someone’s fantasy… doubling the carparking won’t help even reach the current quoted number let alone 500,000

House of Bruar has a huge ‘captive audience’ though because it is on THE busy main north road, and is surrounded by miles and miles of nothing. Glentress isn’t on the main road to anywhere in particular FWICS, you go out your way to go there, it isn’t somewhere you drop in on in passing.

If only there was somewhere else nearby that had something for all the family, playground, shop, cafe, local information, walks, big house to wander roound and some bike trails. Now if somebody did all that they might have something.

So where are all these extra people going to appear from?

Just thought there’s always the osprey’s, maybe Bill Oddie and his mates will all come up?

If only there was somewhere else nearby that had something for all the family, playground, shop, cafe, local information, walks, big house to wander roound and some bike trails. Now if somebody did all that they might have something.

Yeah and their shower block is much nicer too. But keep it quiet part of the charm is that its not very busy

From speaking to a former employee in the area there used to be lots of people would ride their horses at Glentress years ago but they have moved on to other forests, not like there is a shortage

Steven, whilst I like your posts, the same could be levelled at us; I mean there 100s Kms of available riding but we chose a 17Km loop in a spruce forest, people must think we’re mad to not venture out further into the countryside.

whatever do you mean steven? somewhere that even has its own brewery perchance?

Yep, I can’t believe those figures either. I have been a regular weekday visitor in winter when there’s less than ten cars in the car park and no one in the cafe. And that’s more often than not.

I wonder if it were possible that putting money into developing the bus service from Edinburgh to transport bikes to Glentress might increase visitor numbers. I know nothing about it, just wondering…

They might think I was mad if I just went to the same place every weekend to ride the same trail but I don’t. The point I was making was that if you don’t like it there are plenty of other places to go, like the folks on horseback have done. How pampered are we all? Whilst its great to have all the facilities it’s not too hard to change your clothes and give your face a wash before nipping into another local eaterie half a mile down the road. Once went into a great pub at Lochcarron at the end of a very long day, now ok we weren’t muddy but there was probably a bit of a polyester wiff and they were brilliant. Never been turned away from anywhere with just alittle bit of effort to clean up first.

^^ agreed