andreasrhoen

the consensus is that the rohloff is almost as efficient as a dérailleur once run in and assuming a worn / dirty / averagely maintained drivetrain ( Ie halfway thru a muddy ride) but a brand new properly lubed dérailleur drivetrain is better

are there still brands offering the speedhub on an mtb

Yes there are, not many in the UK, more in Germany (unsuprisingly), mostly hardtails mind…

Interesting to hear the ‘mushy clutch’ comments on the Alfine. I wonder if that’s the actual cause of the flexy feeling when I try to wheelie or sprint

I wouldn’t be at all suprised, I can wheelie with the best of them, but on the Alfine it is much harder work to micro-ratchet and control, you basically end up doing a lot of manualling with occasional pwoer application instead, less control from drive and more from weight shift if that makes sense?

Try doing any kind of trials with one! even if you ignore the weight, and torque implications, just trying any kind of pedal lunges/back hops, gaps or ratchety control moves is a flippin nightmare!

For clarity, I’m not really putting this as a downside for IGH, as it’s not it’s intended use, but it is comical just how awful my Alfine feels for that kind of stuff.

Sick just announced they now need to get stuff made abroad to make a living.

Paul@RTW – Anyway, enough ponderings. Want a low CoM, low unsprung mass, “gearbox bike”? Build one yourself. I give you Alfino Bombino:

More info please.

the rohloff is almost as efficient as a dérailleur once run in and assuming a worn / dirty / averagely maintained drivetrain

I have to express my scepticism there.

More info please.

I will get round to writing about it in more detail at some point but in summary, I got bored of waiting for a usable gear box type trail bike so decided to build my own. Without getting away from the OP’s theme too much, the intention was getting the mass central and low and the unsprung mass as low as possible. So it wasn’t about creating a gear box bike as such or even using an Alfine instead of derailleurs, more, how do you get this hunk of gubbins off the rear wheel. So it’s an Alfine, sandwiched between your ankles, driving the rear wheel. Frame is made using the cold cure carbon composite wrapped foam method(as has been described on here by various others).

OK new thread on the Bombino please with lots of pictures! Lots of interesting stuff just from that one photo. 29er? How short is the back end? Funnily enough I was doodling a frame yesterday with a skewed parallelogram back end to keep short stays and a rearward axle path……

Welcome to the STW club of backyard framebuilders 🙂

Welcome to the STW club of backyard framebuilders

I thank you. I have been here a while, popping up on threads here and there, I’ve just never really flashed any of my wares before. I will sort some more info out asap.

So that graph shows the epicyclic Rohloff to be more efficient than the Pinion?
I’m in the market for a new hardtail to commute on this year, currently using a Chinese carbon 26″ frame with a Rohloff.
It’ll be either a 29er with the Rohloff rebuilt into a bigger rim or a gearbox bike probably Pinion.
That Olson websites not good.

Anyone seen or tried the “French Pinion”?

Looks to be lighter and has a rather nice one piece fixed rear hub.
https://www.effigear.com/gearbox

Rather nice full bikes
https://www.cavalerie-bikes.com/copie-de-page-d-acceuil

IHG bikes are only niche in the UK. they are mainstream in most of europe

I live in Europe, I do, and not one person I know who uses their bike in the hills rides with an IGH bike, be that road or MTB.

True the are lots of shopping/commuter bikes with IGH….

A while back I met a Spanish guy who had set up a bike co. His ISP was that there was no freehub at the rear hub, but rather it was fixed. The freehub was at the cranks. This meant you could change great at anytime as long as you were rolling.

I sometimes find myself in the wing gear coming into a section with no time or opportunity to change up or down.

Seemed like an interesting idea, but would mean a shed load of specialised parts.

my hub gear bike is heavy and the shift quality is poor. this doesn’t make it inefficient though – as i never ride the thing!

would like to try zerode taniwha (pinion box). looks great – reviews are good.

I’ve had Rohloff, Pinion and Alfine 8. Interesting the efficiency comments on the 8 – maybe that explains why some days it feels draggy as hell and others it doesn’t. It might be that when I’m tired already i drop a gear and it feels worse.

I never found my Rohloff to be draggy – they *feel* Grundy in some gears but I don’t think you actaully lose any power throngh it. Very surprised that the Pinion comes out worse – in use it feels better (but maybe that’s the perception thing – Pinion feels smooth).

Weight distribution is definitely the issue for a Rohloff off road. Pinion completely addresses that and for a trail/enduro bike that’s not being raced I don’t think the extra weight is an issue.

Personally for technical riding I think the benefits of being able to shift when stationary are greater than the downsides of slower pickup.

You could almost achieve the aims of the original post by doing the old honda trick of bunging a mech and cassette in a box, then plopping it down somewhere near the bottom bracket.

Anyone seen or tried the “French Pinion”?

Looks like all the gears are engaged all the time, they are just disconnected from the output when not in use? Also there’s a second gear step, so you go through 4 gears. Seems draggy, but then I don’t actually see how a pinion works either.

a pinion has pawls in a thru shaft which when you change gear engage the inner pickup teeth on the shaft , this is why you have to back off slightly there are other methods which would eliminate this need but …

you could save a fair bit of weight , well 1/3rd of that I reckon ( know) but it would cost more

if I said 750g and 20 gears was possible hydraulically or electrically it wouldn’t be a revelation to some

Very surprised that the Pinion comes out worse

Well we are only looking at results from one test, and the difference is between ~91% and ~94% so it’s already into the realms of ‘hard to feel’ at 2-3% difference.

Contrast that with a whopping 8~10% difference between an N8s 4th and 5th gears depending on input power.

ie: there’s over three times the difference between two gears in the same hub as there is between two entirely different systems (Pinion and Rohloff).

More lab testing would be good, more actual real world testing (long term) and with power meters would be even better, especially to get a proper handle on exactly how badly a normal 1x or 2x dedangler setup is affected by a bit of much and wear. There’s been numerous attempts to quantify it with wildly different answers.

if I said 750g and 20 gears was possible hydraulically or electrically it wouldn’t be a revelation to some

I’d heard a kilo thrown about a few times, but <800g is a bold target to aim for, not saying it’s impossible, I’d just be dead impressed if it could be pulled off in a reliable form. I’d also be first in the queue to hand over a kidney 🙂

As I kind of mentioned in an earlier post I’m quite pinion-curious, I’ve nearly placed an order a couple of times but not quite done it. Was tempted to buy one of the Kalkhoff Pinion hybrid/tourers as they do a P12 version for < £1800 complete which could be a good test bed for urban use a bit of easy forestry trails etc. to see how I get on with one before going proper MTB.

I find it interesting that some of us feel the rohloff draggy and others do not. I do think there is some drag in ours on the tandem but not much and I really don’t notice it unless I try to.

Sub 800g is getting into ‘modern mega range cassette+mech+extra chain length’ territory.

Interesting:)

On weight – this turned up on google rohloff 200 g heavier than a 3×9 I can’t see what level 3×9 it is

http://www.bikestation.fi/info/en/brands/rohloff/speedhub/weight/

From Rohloff site

hmmm, bit light on info that graph isn’t it…and ‘From Rohloff site’ = pinch of salt.

I can’t see what level 3×9 it is

Zoom, Zoom, enhance…

It’s LX mechs from a few years ago, possibly LX shifters, but look like they might be Deore, and a cheap cassette.

So even if it is only 200g for that setup, it will be more for a more expensive setup, and more for an expensive 1x setup. But even if it’s 600g or 800g that’s largely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, still got the problem of lumping all the weight in one place though…non-issue for utility/tandem/touring, more so for performance bikes. You get used to it though.

Don’t forget theres £1000 worth of IGH on one scale, and only £100 worth of dedanglers on the other. 😉

hmmm, bit light on info that graph isn’t it…and ‘From Rohloff site’ = pinch of salt.

In more detail

It’s LX from a few years ago, with a cheap cassette.

Small wheel as well – is it 20″?

In more detail

Thanks for providing the link, the graph on it’s own was a bit suspicious 😉
Reading now….but still looks a bit light on the details of the ‘other’ systems tested against.
Still would like more independent and crucially real world and long term testing to be done, there just isn’t enough comparable data really. Either way, the proof is in the riding, the only system I don’t have direct experience with is the Pinion.

Small wheel as well – is it 20″?

yeah, but it’s a small wheel in both pics, so irrelevant. Scale them both up to big wheels and the difference is still the same.

but still looks a bit light on the details of the ‘other’ systems tested against.

24 speed with XT cassette – 100km ‘break in’ mileage.

And the other IGHs? and other levels of derailleur spec? and at different wear levels? and different lubrication levels, and with different lubes? and contamination levels? etc. etc.

I don’t mean getting model numbers of the gear they tested against. I mean more meaningful data about how they compare under normal use, and at varying points in their lifecycle etc.

There’s a bit int here:

To achieve a practical result, the chain and sprockets will then be replaced with components which have been subject to 1000km use and show the amount of dirt which would have been collected over this time span

But no mention of what kind of dirt, if it’s dried, how the 1000km was accumulated and what kind of actual wear level that has caused, nothing about re-lubing and what with etc.

I mean I get it, they’ve tried to account or a lot of variables, and done a damn sight more than a lot of test procedures do, but there’s still a lot of variables left to consider, and if anything it’s probably painting derailleurs in a better light than reality would.

They even say that:

We would like to point out that the points represented here should be a stimulus for a discussion since there are so many open questions in the field of practical efficiency measurements regarding bicycle transmission systems

And I think that’s the key point, individual tests, even well designed ones, in a lab environment will get you some data. A different test might get you similar or vastly different results. In some respects Rohloff are lucky as when people test a speedhub they’re pretty much always testing ‘a speedhub’ where as there is so much variation in derailleur setups that a standardised comparison in that regard is difficult.

Please don’t think I’m pooh-poohing any of the tests or reports BTW, I’m simply saying (as they are) that it’s a very wide topic that goes well beyond the scope of some graphs and lab tests and that actual long term use of the systems under real world conditions is the only way to really get a feel for how they perform and compare.

More data from more sources, in more conditions and over more timespans would be great too!

My experience from owning a Thorn Raven equipped with a Rohloff hub for a couple of years about 10 years ago . They said there was virtually no weight difference between it and a derailleur system . They lied there was a noticeable difference .
They said it was no less efficient than a derailleur . They lied , I went from being near the front of my riding group to being very near to the back when switching between derailleur and Rohloff equipped bikes . The drag was really noticeable in the 7 lower ratios so steep uphill climbs became much harder .. Having to virtually stop pedaling to make a gear change did nothing to help progress and the whirring noise in some gears was irritating .
They said it was virtually maintenance free . They lied within 18 months the wheel went back to Rohloff via SJS Cycles with play in the bearings .it was repaired at no cost to me and came back from Germany with a very apologetic note but by the time I sold it there was play in the bearings again .
There were things I liked about it such as changing gear while stationary , not having an exposed rear derailleur , and no front shifting but I did seem to get a lot more rear wheel punctures than usual which may have been bad luck but also may have been caused by the extra rear wheel weight .
Overall for me the negatives outweighed the positives by a long way but at least when I sold it I found that they hold their price pretty well .

[q]You could almost achieve the aims of the original post by doing the old honda trick of bunging a mech and cassette in a box, then plopping it down somewhere near the bottom bracket.[/q]

Funny you should say that. I mocked up just that last night in a jig. (Alfino Bombino’s more efficient, lighter brother is brewing). Some 100 mm cranks have been ordered today as I need a bit more space than a 68/73 crankset allows.

Remember that most hub gears and gear boxes work in different ways.

What is good / bad about one may be totally different for the other.

‘but I did seem to get a lot more rear wheel punctures than usual which may have been bad luck but also may have been caused by the extra rear wheel weight’

Do you really think that adding less than a kilo to your rear wheel would give a lot more punctures?

A mate has a zerode and he loves it.  My only criticism is that it has a large amount of drive line lash or take up (very spoilt on Nobl hubs).

id have a pinion gearbox as a winter bike if I could afford one.

I’m sure that pinion said you should be using a fixed rear hub when it first came out.

“Do you really think that adding less than a kilo to your rear wheel would give a lot more punctures?”

Seems plausible to me although I did say that it may have been the cause .
How much extra weight in a rear hub do you think would be necessary to up the puncture count just out of interest ?

It’s plausible that a heavier rear wheel would be more difficult to unweight over obstacles and hence end up crashing into things more giving more pinch flats.

I loaded up my rigid bike with water and tools (instead of on my back) and it was more crashy and didn’t ride over bumps as well, so I can sort of understand this idea.

I also experianced an increase in rear wheel punctures on my rohloff….on both a thorn raven and a ragley td1 29er.

Rear end even when you unweight it goes crashing into shit heavily thanks to the weight so it’s not impossible for it to be the cause.

I’m sure that pinion said you should be using a fixed rear hub when it first came out.

Going through the early stages of getting a pinion based hardtail built and been look at hub options. General view from interwebz is that as quick a hub as possible is best. Been looking at Project 321 or Onyx Stealth as options, more likely the former at the moment as it has 216 poe and seems well reviewed.

punctures in the rear due to more mass:

this is quite an interesting point.

The rear suspension is a spring damper mass system. If – lets say – 1 kg more moving mass guides to different dynamics – and much higher accelerations – then 1 kg “more mass” might increase the peak force on the tire patch by factors…

Force = mass times acceleration

Worst: if 1 kg more mass lowers the resonance frequency that much that the rear suspension operates “close to this frequency”. In this case lots of energy will be stored to create much higher peak forces…

Above: not an issue when riding over a flat road.

Becomes an issue when biking over obstacles / in an trail.

forgot to mention: this “one kg” dynamics thing is mainly for full suspension (mountain) bikes…

Hi All, newbie on here but with a life long obsession with hub gears so I thought I would jump straight in on this thread.

My hub gear ownership started as a kid in Suffolk, with a SA 3 spd drop bar Hercules Hustler in the 70s, which was loads better than I cared to admit at the time (first I wanted a Chopper then I wanted, and finally got, a 10 speed racer of course) followed much later by other hubs on other bikes, starting with a 4 spd Nexus (slick easy change, bit draggy), SA Sprinter 7 (felt quite efficient but overly strong return spring on the shift mech and it was always going wrong) 8 speed Nexus twice (first died  due to water ingress, second hub kept going six years by fitting later design right hand sealing set-up and lagging the outer bearings and seals with marine grade grease, it was draggy but better when running the internals in gear oil), NOS SRAM P5 hub with drum brake (mild drag, slightly stiff shifting, seems reliable and fuss free), Alfine 11, love it, no issues at all after a year’s use commuting and leisure rides on road, and it feels way more efficient than the Nexus 8 plus the range is just fine for the local hilly lanes in Cornwall.

I recently swapped out my daughter’s 40 year old Raleigh Cameo 3spd ladies bike’s hub with the aforementioned SRAM 5 speed so she can get up the hills of Brighton a bit more easily, so have a venerable 1970s oil lubed SA 3 speed to hand, and have bought a ’92 Spesh Rockhopper frameset for £35 + £10 P+P, with the intention of building a 3 spd MTB as I don’t currently have an off road bike, the last one being a single speed which was just a bit lacking in range, but the trails round here are a lot flatter than the roads so I reckon a 3 spd will be just fine.

Times are hard so have to do this project seriously on the cheap, the frameset came with BB and headset, but the Spesh brand cup and cone BB is a totally shot unfortunately, however the 1″ threaded headset looks absolutely perfect. So far have bought: set of used Deore v-brakes £10; one new Schwalbe Landcruiser tyre £8; one barely used Conti Country (v similar to Landcruiser) £5, UN53 £13, no name new alloy levers £5, all from eBay. From Spa cycles: Stronglight ST55 single speed chainset £22; 2x Rigida Snyper rims £10 each, KMC B1S chain £5, 2x Schwalbe rim tape £1.50 each. Once I have the rims and can check the ERD I will order Halo ED black spokes & nipples from JE James at 20p each (36H wheels so that is £14.40, free P+P). I have spare front Deore LX hub, saddle, seatpost, quill stem, bars, grips, tubes in the shed so that is £150 spent including the spokes and all else I need are brake cables and blocks, I think…