Dear All,

If I replaced my Stumpy FSR (Brain Equipped) with a Single pivot (5,Heckler,Prophet, M’Wood Shova) what differences will I notice in the ride?

I like the fsr but it eats its bearings too fast and its not massively plush with the Fox brain, I do mainly trail centre riding, Peak District and polaris challenges. I’m also 95 kg if that matters to nayone.

Yes I appreciate the increase in travel whilst moving upto one of the above frames.

Cheers 🙂

I don’t think you can assume that all single-pivots are the same. The Meta is a single pivot and I noticed it had better grip uphill than my Stumpy FSR. Seems like the wheel is just tracking the terrain better?

The suspension will stiffen a bit when climbing using the granny ring. It can feel better, but it’s probably a bit less supple.

I’ve just gone the other way, back to a proper 4-bar. On the whole there’s not much difference, but the 4 bar is noticeably more supple

Pedal feedback on that bunch, I would have thought.

4 bars (and this includes VPP since despite what the marketing men may tell you, they are just a specific type of four bar) are typcially designed to be more supple (though not always – eg Giant NRS) but I find that it also means that unless you’ve got a decent bit of propedal on, they squat/wallow noticeably on twisty stuff where you need to stamp on the pedals to accelerate out of corners. Of course this will also be affected by your riding style and the specific bike you’re talking.

Braking over ripples/stutter bumps is noticeably better on most four bars IMO.

Braking over ripples/stutter bumps is noticeably better on most four bars IMO.

I’d agree with that.

My NRS is significantly less supple than my single pivot 🙂

Depends on the pivot placing of the SP. Depends on the linkage design of the 4-bar, you really cant generalise IMO.

Thanks Chaps,

Please define Pedal Feedback & Brake jack for me ta.

quat/wallow noticeably on twisty stuff where you need to stamp on the pedals to accelerate out of corners

Hadn’t noticed this with Maestro (a variant of VPP variant which is a variant of 4-bar) which is very responsive to pedal input without platform damping. But it does compress-release when you fling your mass through fast corners – you spring through successive turns, which feels a bit like snowboarding 😀

Can’t comment on single-pivot as don’t have much experience.

I used to be a VPP / fancy suspension advocate, had FSR XC, Blur LT, VPFree – more recently, as shocks have better platform, I’ve gone for all single pivots – Meta 55 and Orange Alpine… I’m prefering the ride.

I went from a four bar to a single pivot a couple of years ago for similar reasons (Scott Genius to Orange 5). Loved riding the 5 around the trail centres, much better suited to that kind of terrain than the Genius, IMO.

The rear shock (Fox RP23) with pro-pedal makes a big difference when climbing. Am quite happy riding the 5 and changing the pivot bearings once every couple of years. No desire to go back to four bar.

Mind you, my other bike is a fully rigid 29er. Now you do notice the difference when jumping on the 5 after being on that….. ;0)

Basically, not as plush, but more stable on the whole.

My 5 gives hardly any pedal feedback, and when it does it’s not a problem. The Patriot on the other hand gives a fair bit more – but I don’t mind that 🙂

Btw had both for over 2 years and not changed either bearings. I have changed shock bushings once though on the Patriot.

But there are a whole lot of other factors to consider on those different bikes.

I’ve had various SP bikes within 4 bar.

Gemini
575
Heckler

I’ve gone back to 4 bar and notice a bigger benefit in rough ground and of all of my SP bikes the gemini was the most fun.
The 575 wasnt as good on off camber stuff compared to 4 bar, you just have to alter the way you ride.
My heckler wasnt the most reliable, seized bearings which came apart in the frame. So if I was ever going the sp way for maintenence I’d go Prophet. Saying that I’m more than happy with 4 Bar.

I found the FSR back end on my old specialized seemed to have a bit of sideways flex (compared to my orange patriot), this was noticeable on hip jumps where you are turning on the take off slightly.

Id probably change if it was my choice, I liked the simplicity of a single pivot bike.

Please define Pedal Feedback

This is STW so I’ll be slapped down instantly of course, but what I know as Pedal feedback is where the rider can feel the suspension moving through the pedals.

All the bikes you mentioned have a reasonably high, forward placed pivot, giving a backwards arcing montion to the rear axle path. So the distance between the rear axle and the BB grows as the bike compresses through it’s travel.

This can be detectable as the pedals are effectively pulled backwards slightly under compression.

The positive side is that under power, the chain wants to pull the rear axle forward thus acting against the suspension and stiffening it slightly so when cranking along it should counteract the bike’s tendency to bob.

My personal experience is that on some bikes with high forward pivots when you pedal hard through rough terrain it can feel a bit like the bottom bracket keeps going momentarily stiff. And stood on the pedals coasting through rough terrain you feel more of what’s going on. It can only be a tiny sensation but after 10 years of riding other types of bike it was noticable. I’m sure I’d get used to it, and would quite like to as I’m starting to lust after the Orange 5…

The closer to the BB the swingarm pivot is located, the less this will be felt. But the more bob you’ll get, and the more you’ll have to rely on platform damping and swish shocks.

Brake jack – where the braking causes the rear wheel to stiffen the suspension. The rear brake is attached to the swingarm above the axle so as you brake its doing the opposite of a wheelie. This feels like the suspension has just gotten stiffer.

You will see big DH bikes have thier rear brakes on a seperate arm so this wont happen. On a XC bike Id be surprised if this really matters. Your more likely to be using more front brake to slow hard anyway, and stutter bumps are more likely to be found on DH courses, or badly designed trail centers, where repeated riding causes them. You wont find that out in the countryside.

4-bar in itself is usually only going to affect brake jack and even then, less so on shorter travel frames.

Pedalling feel is otherwise defined (all other aspects being equal) by pivot height. Most 4-bar bikes seem to have low pivots than single pivot bikes, which make them more active when pedalling. Of course the shock set-up can/will be different also from one bike to the next.

So in general to compare bikes on the basis of 4-bar vs single pivot is pretty useless, unless you read alot of magazines. IMO.

Also the OP has a brain shock – and as none of his prospective single pivot bikes do that’s another factor making general comparisons invalid.

My heckler wasnt the most reliable, seized bearings which came apart in the frame.

You let them get that bad? Mine lasted several years fine.

I think braking affecting the suspension movement must only be an issue on a non-horst link 4 bar – where the axle and caliper are on different elements that can move relative to each other. When you brake, it’d cause the chainstay to move towards the seat stay and hence compress the suspension. I can’t see how it happens on a single beam like the Orange 5.

When you go piling into a corner on the anchors and the rear end hits hard, that’s cos you’re braking and the wheel stops turning when it pops up in the air momentarily. This could be worse on a SP because on some designs you need to run more rebound damping which would encourage a bit of packing down and hence less responsiveness. But on an Orange 5 you can run the damping much faster than on other bikes – not sure why, but it gives a nice fast rear end without being kicked off on the big hits.

I think the linkage thing on DH bikes is actually doing something other than what people think it’s doing.

non-horst link 4 bar

If there’s no Horst pivot/link on the chainstay then it not a 4 bar. It’s a single pivot with a linkage activated shock.
🙂

…or a VPP

…or a VPP

Same thing. A vpp is tecnically a 4 bar.
🙂

If there’s no Horst pivot/link on the chainstay then it not a 4 bar. It’s a single pivot with a linkage activated shock.

There are four bars. Count ’em, one two three four. So it’s a four bar – the clue’s in the name. There’s Horst links and non-horst links..

However I still think a VPP is not a four bar, since there are more than four bars and it works differently.