• This topic has 215 replies, 89 voices, and was last updated 8 years ago by DezB.
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  • Friday's Fatman Faceplant
  • jimjam
    Free Member

    As a cyclist I really loathe these self-made cycling vigilantes and his You Tube feed shows he gets off on being sanctimonious to anyone he can video. I don’t think he appreciates that it is having a more damaging effect in polarising and cementing anti-cycling views.

    globalti

    Spot on.The cyclist was a complete idiot, the front and back cameras go beyond what was reasonable and if I was a coroner I would be forced to conclude that the cyclist was looking for this kind of confrontation.

    I starting to think that those cyclists going around confronting drivers, camera’d up and sanctimonious are actually just doing it as some kind of defence mechanism. I think they are doing it as a last resort. They are a weak, vulnerable person trying to hold their ground whilst they are massively outnumbered by bigger, more aggressive, much more dangerous people (in cars). To me their like an old widower living on a rough estate, intimidated by everyone and becoming increasingly paranoid, buying cameras and gadgets to defend themselves.

    Years ago, me and a mate used to scoff and laugh at one of his colleagues (albeit behind his back) because he used to commute through Belfast with at least 4 cameras, and god knows how many lights. Now, it wasn’t really a tough part of town to commute through in fairness, but this guy was your a-typical camera cyclist. And this was when portable cameras were much, much bigger. So to us he looked hilarious.

    Seeing it for what it is now he was just a very frightened, timid individual doing what he could to try and defend himself. And we were dicks for mocking him.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    the front and back cameras go beyond what was reasonable and if I was a coroner I would be forced to conclude that the cyclist was looking for this kind of confrontation.

    Would you say that about the driver of any other vehicle purely based on the fact they had cameras fitted?

    It’s not uncommon for buses, lorries and taxis to have dashcams these days.
    Seeing more of them in cars and motorcycles too.

    And don’t get me started on lamposts. Spoiling for a fight they are!

    Personally I think it would be fair to say that if the cyclist deliberately chased the guy down *then* he “was looking for this kind of confrontation”.

    toby1
    Full Member

    It’s an interesting point though, the cyclist was entitled to be a safe door-opening distance into the road but it didn’t look an unreasonable gap. Cyclists should expect a little more room, but on some country roads when a car overtakes another there is maybe only a foot between mirrors; it’s not reasonable to expect a whole lane’s gap when passing.

    Watch the video back, the car is close, far closer than it should be.

    As for this comment, on a country road where there is less space the car should wait until it can pass the cyclist safely, leaving the cyclist space to fall into the road should they happen to do so. It’s what I do when driving my car. Is it not what you’d do?

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    DezB
    Free Member

    Funnily enough it was the dangerous passes etc. which prompted me to get a camera for the commute. Not, “I know, this riding to work is dead boring, maybe if I go around looking for a massive vehicle to crush my bones I could catch it on camera and entertain people with my youtube channel!”
    But then that logic has been spewed enough times and dickheads are gonna think what they’re gonna think. Just like you can’t change a driver’s attitude by shouting at them, or in any way telling them what they’ve done wrong.

    Just remembered yesterday, a car went far too close to me on my ride. I instictivley shouted an expletive at them and then thought, I wonder if they’ll stop and confront me like I’m the one who has done something to endanger them… but I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t run away (unless they were dead scary).

    ransos
    Free Member

    The 51-year-old motorist from Henley-on-Thames was cautioned by Thames Valley Police after he admitted committing a public order offence, assault, and making threats to commit criminal damage……

    Good. I doubt we can change his attitude, but just maybe if people think there is a reasonable chance of some punishment for this kind of behaviour, they’ll think twice.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    Other things that (UK) cyclists often do that give the rest of us a ‘bad name’:

    – Cycling on the road
    – Being vulnerable
    – Staying *out* of the gutter and door zone
    – Wearing clothing designed for cycling
    – Not wearing clothing designed for cycling
    – Reporting dangerous/life-endangering drivers
    – Being slower than motorised vehicles
    – Using cameras
    – Commuting
    – Expecting drivers to wait before overtaking at a pinch-point or any narrow section
    – Observing the Highway Code
    – Not being in a motorised vehicle
    – Defending our right to be on the road

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Cyclists should expect a little more room, but on some country roads when a car overtakes another there is maybe only a foot between mirrors; it’s not reasonable to expect a whole lane’s gap when passing.

    If there’s only a foot’s gap between wing mirrors overtaking on a country road, I’d contend the road isn’t wide enough to overtake. Now, you might argue it’s the same gap whether overtaking or two cars passing each other in opposite directions, but with the vast majority of cars being RH drive in this country we’re better at judging the distance to the wing mirror that’s only a foot further out than our right shoulder than we are to one which is 6 feet away. Which I’m convinced is why a lot of cars pass too close, because people can’t judge that distance properly and hence we have to give them much bigger clues, like leaving a whole lane.

    Second – if a car overtakes another on a country road and clips wing mirrors, then it’ll probably amount to a couple of hundred quid in damage. Pass me on a bike and clip me, and there’s a reasonable chance of serious injury or worse if you knock me off into the path of the car following behind.

    Risk vs reward, again.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    How about…

    Cyclist: Hi, I’m Jim, what’s your name?
    Driver: Dave
    Jim: Hi Dave, I have to say I felt a bit intimidated by your close pass earlier. A less experienced cyclist might have been upset by that and there could have been a collision.
    Dave: Oh, sorry I’m a bit stressed and in a bit of a rush – I’ll try and pay more attention
    Jim: Thanks Dave, I hope you have a good day.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    should expect a little more room, but on some country roads when a car overtakes another there is maybe only a foot between mirrors; it’s not reasonable to expect a whole lane’s gap when passing.

    ‘Not reasonable’?

    From my perspective as a road user – (both a driver and cyclist) what is not reasonable is endangering fellow road-users by feeling entitled/compelled to risk an overtake where oncoming traffic allows ‘only a foot between mirrors’

    aracer
    Free Member

    fixed

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    How about…

    Cyclist: Hi, I’m Jim, what’s your name?
    Driver: Dave
    Jim: Hi Dave, I have to say I felt a bit intimidated by your close pass earlier. A less experienced cyclist might have been upset by that and there could have been a collision.
    Dave: Oh, sorry I’m a bit stressed and in a bit of a rush – I’ll try and pay more attention
    Jim: Thanks Dave, I hope you have a good day.

    Spot on. In an ideal world. Although I was lightly attacked by a large dog two days ago – it ran at me, barking, jumped up and put it’s teeth on my arm. In the heat of the moment (to my lasting shame) I forgot to ask their names and to bid them a good day. Instead it went like this:

    (owner calls dog off which let go before any real force was exerted on my arm)
    Me (agitated): “You have a dangerous dog there”
    He: “He’s not dangerous”
    Me: “I’d call jumping up and putting his teeth around my arm ‘dangerous’ wouldn’t you?”

    No farewells or well-wishes from either party.

    *Edit – Though I do personally believe that cyclist in the video had time to calm down when pursuing the driver, he could have approached him differently. Not saying it would have made a scrap of difference, I’d suggest it was never going to end well.

    iolo
    Free Member

    Did the dog bite? Cause you pain?

    hilldodger
    Free Member

    theotherjonv – Member

    …if a car overtakes another on a country road and clips wing mirrors, then it’ll probably amount to a couple of hundred quid in damage. Pass me on a bike and clip me, and there’s a reasonable chance of serious injury or worse if you knock me off into the path of the car following behind.

    Exactly, looking at the amount of scrapes and dings the average car shows just how much “oooops, sorry” behaviour some motorists are prepared to accept.

    Add in road warriors and cyclist haterz to the downright incompetent and it’s not suprising some commuting cyclists behave a bit defensive towards our four wheeled friends.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    A common theme I find in these videos are the rather bizarre arguments and justifications that the driver offers. Where do they get these from?

    In this case:

    Cyclist: you passed me within that distance
    Driver: Well you’re f lucky that I didn’t hit you then aren’t you?

    Well yes. I think that was rather his point 😕
    Maybe you should say sorry?

    Are you a tank? No. Are you a car? No. You’re a f little bicycle but you seem to want to be in the middle of the road. So that’s your problem if you get knocked off.

    Eh? I’m not sure that’s quite how it works mate.

    have you got insurance on your bicycle? No.
    have you got a helmet on? No.

    Oh right. So if he did have insurance and a helmet then you’d have politely waited and overtaken at a sensible safe place?? (Actually he says he does have insurance but angrydad doesn’t give him time to answer)

    I’m surprised he didn’t mention road tax at this point to be honest. As the “I’m allowed to kill you because you don’t pay tax” also seems to be a common line of thought in these confrontations too.

    DezB
    Free Member

    jimdubleyou » How about…

    Wow, some folk really do live in some fantasy world.
    Although, to be fair I have taken a similar approach a couple of times.

    1. Lorry driver, back of lorry clipped my arm as he overtook.
    Climbed on cab at next lights.
    “YOu just hit me mate!”
    “No I didn’t”
    Pointless conversation ended up me calling him a thick something or other.

    2. Young lady, scared me with her close overtake on a blind bend.
    Tapped on window at next lights.
    “Wow, you were really close up there, you scared me!”
    “Oh, yeah, sorry”
    Situation diffused.

    I suspect Peugeot Dad’s response would have been identical to the one already presented on video. Name introduction or not.

    Malvern Rider
    Free Member

    Did the dog bite? Cause you pain?

    No, neither have the many drivers whose cars literally brushed my arm when I’ve been cycling. Except for the one that dragged me around an island, that caused me a considerable amount of pain (and loss of wages).

    I’ll always contend that an unleashed dog, barking, bounding over jumping up and putting it’s teeth around someone’s arm is a dangerous dog, whether potentially or literally. We have a small dog, completely harmless – yet (while leashed on a narrow path) he once sniffed someone’s ankles and she nearly leaped down a steep bank in what appeared to be theatrical, hysterical terror. Her husband subsequently raged at us for the perceived danger. That kind of overreaction gets my back up, yet our dog was in ‘her space’ and on a public path – no getting away from that.

    aracer
    Free Member

    He did mention something about paying for the roads, so I think he covered that one.

    jimdubleyou
    Full Member

    Dez B Wow, some folk really do live in some fantasy world.

    I was a dream scenario I had… ….if only people could just stop being c****s to each other.

    cchris2lou
    Full Member

    if you can stay calm and collected when you have a near miss , good on you but I cant .

    i commute everyday and always on the defensive .

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    He did mention something about paying for the roads, so I think he covered that one.

    Must have missed that amongst the angry spluttering. Full House then.
    Top marks to angrydad. Somebody give that man a Clarkson.

    hora
    Free Member

    Definitely no winners in that clip fullstop.

    It was close but there was NO accident.

    What if all dash cam drivers went after nearish drivers or near misses? It’d be classed as ..road rage.

    He chased the driver after all. Hence two wrongs IMO.

    He then went onto post it making ‘cyclists’ look like petty dicks.

    aracer
    Free Member

    As with my edit above, it doesn’t really make a difference if you do stay calm and collected – that wasn’t just taking the piss, it’s how I expect it would have gone with that cardiac arrest waiting to happen. I’ve been calm and collected before now (I try hard to start off that way) and just got abuse in response – some people get all defensive when challenged on their behaviour because they feel entitled to behave that way.

    aracer
    Free Member

    Oh, that’s OK then.

    You didn’t happen to be in a chavved up small car last week near Worcester last week? When I complained about them cutting in on me the response was “well you’re still on your bike aren’t you?” Presumably such driving is fine so long as you don’t kill anybody.

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    What did the driver look like then?
    Paragon of virtue and example to all

    I think for it to be classed as road rage you would need to be going batshit mental, getting out or off your vehicle, threatening to kill someone, committing assault /chasing someone etc.

    Following someone is not road rage what the driver did is road rage.
    I assume even pistonheads can work that one out even if you are struggling

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Presumably such driving is fine so long as you don’t kill anybody.

    And even if you do it is still fine.

    People will watch the video and say “It wasn’t that close. He had loads of room.”

    Then a jury of twelve drivers will acquit you on the basis that the sun was unexpectedly present in the sky during the day.

    hora
    Free Member

    Following? He clearly went after him. If I or you was looking in the rear view it’d be escalation.

    Not so long back I was at the lights in the middle of the lane 50m’s from the next lights (that also go red/not enough time). To my left are two more lanes and immediately on my right a verge with my chosen outer lane diverging off into residential. As the light turned green the driver behind me floored it (spun his fronts) and ‘squeezed past’.

    At the next light (red) I rolled up and said ‘why’? His reply ‘you were allover the road so I decided to squeeze past you **** ****’. I simply replied ‘right’ and left it.

    Last year we had a stw road pootle- we were cut up by a female bmw driver and I heard her car ground out on the mini roundabout, rider shouts ‘you ****’ (it was close) -hearing this she slammed on and cut across hitting the kerb to cut him up. Shouted at him etc. I rode back and said ‘excuse me could I speak to you for a moment’ to which she lurched forward/floored it and made us jump out of the way.

    You CANT educate or ‘win’. Youll have a heart attack.

    Unless you are hit at best you are better off raising your hand in an OPEN gesture or just carry on. The transgressor is in a 1-2 ton killing machine. I’ve seen short/slight drivers lose it with other road users. It brings out irrational short term behaviour in some people.

    It’d be safer to change commute time (quieter) – even by 30mins in a morning can mean you are out of the rusher’s-way or route entirely. Who wants to ingest diesel fumes anyway?

    DezB
    Free Member

    I just watched back the video from yesterday, here’s a normal overtake (I might have even waved a “thanks” at this driver, something I do when they give good space):

    Shortly followed by this arse.

    There wasn’t even anything on the other side of the road.
    On the video I swear even before the image in the first snapshot. You feel them. It’s not “ooh, let me have a think, gosh that car was jolly close” it’s “****!”

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    How fast is that road? First one is still overtaking into traffic, unless your vid is making it look worse than it is. Perhaps the roads up here are less busy, and waiting for a better gap less of a problem.

    hora
    Free Member

    DezB I once had a JCB driver use theside of his bucket (v.close) to move me more to the kerb. His reasoning was I should be riding in the kerb and I was being a tit so he ‘moved me over’.

    DezB
    Free Member

    and..? As in my previous post a lorry clipped me, he said I was in a layby. like I’d jump on a cab and confront a lorry driver just for fun.
    It’s just weird, but I don’t think you can just let people get away with it.

    DezB
    Free Member

    First one is still overtaking into traffic

    That doesn’t effect me though. I have enough problem judging every one else’s driving when I’m in the car! When I’m on the bike I’m just concerned about my own safety.

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    > First one is still overtaking into traffic

    That doesn’t effect me though.

    It would do if they decide to abort the overtake by side-swiping into you instead of risking a head-on crash, which is what I’d be worried about there. 😕

    For the “he had loads of room” crowd. Here is a still from the Peugeot video. Even if you don’t consider the fish-eye lens that still looks waaaaay too close to me:

    (For reference the generally agreed safe minimum overtaking distance is 1.5 metres. Sadly not in UK law though).

    hora
    Free Member

    All of which shows road riding can be way gnarlier than mountain biking.

    If its not road surface, spilt diesel, sun in eyes, legal high, drunk, tired drivers etc all conspire to make mtb a safer place.

    DezB
    Free Member

    It would do if they decide to abort the overtake by side-swiping into you instead of risking a head-on crash, which is what I’d be worried about there

    What? Are you forgetting this was a video of a real event? that car over took, gave me plenty of room. It’s over! That’s it!

    GrahamS
    Full Member

    Yeah I understand that, but I’m saying that I’m not sure I would be waving thanks to that driver for a nice safe overtake.

    On the first frame I’d have my eyes on the verge figuring out where I can perform a Tactical Dismount if they decide this overtake is a bad idea.

    But you were there. Closing speeds may be much slower than they appear in your stills. If you were happy with it then fair enough.

    richmtb
    Full Member

    You CANT educate or ‘win’. Youll have a heart attack.

    This is the problem. I shouldn’t be this way it needs to change.

    I was thinking about this in general the other day. I actually enjoy the challenge of commuting. Riding fast, taking the lane, being assertive. But this is NOT NORMAL!

    Commuting by bike shouldn’t be a challenge, it shouldn’t feel like combat! You shouldn’t have to behave like a prey animal being chased down by hounds simply for choosing a different way to get to work

    Apparently female cyclists report more instances of abuses and near misses because they ride slower, so essentially we live in a society where apparently it is acceptable to bully weaker members on the roads.

    And we tolerate it!

    DezB
    Free Member

    Anyway, the shocking thing was that Vectra didn’t have anything restricting how far to the right it could go. He didn’t stop and challenge me, and the traffic lights, not far off, are at the top of a nasty little climb!

    richmtb
    Full Member

    Anyway, the shocking thing was that Vectra didn’t have anything restricting how far to the right it could go.

    Nothing pisses me offer more when commuting than close passes with nothing on the other side of the road

    Solo
    Free Member

    DezB’s red car shouldn’t have overtaken at that moment, imo. Oncoming traffic. In that situation as the driver, I wait for the other side of the road to clear. Looks like a fast country road so not generous amounts of width. I’d have waited, it only costs a few seconds and amounts to kak all in comparison to the time taken to make the entire journey.

    Vectra driver? Well posting naughty words won’t change what’s going on behind the eyes of that driver.
    8 out of 10 passes like that are deliberate, displaying a callous and in some cases malicious disregard for the safety of another.
    Shocking, just shocking.

    As a car driver, I’d never want another road/footpath user to come to harm by my driving. I just wouldn’t want that on my hands.

    Drivers like that suffer Tin box syndrome, with potentially deadly results.

    hora
    Free Member

    Richmtb agree.

    Ontop of this you get the (I wont say sex etc) mobile facebook/texter drafting past you too. Lost in their own bubble.

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