I just sent my five year old son off to school with the photograph of a section of the Berlin Wall he took on a recent trip to the Imperial War Museum. It’s show and tell day; today he will be talking about how the Berlin Wall separated east from west and meant that people on the wrong side of it were not able to think and do as they wanted; the wall represented one group’s desire to control how people thought and limit their freedom.

I love being a father and having the opporutnity to educate my kids about the important things.

The irony is that he goes to a faith school. I’m OK with this though I don’t believe myself and I feel it is my duty to provide him with a different perspective.

I’ve told him that you could see religion as being a little bit like the Berlin wall….

rebuild it for all i care…..

3 billion a year comes from the two southern states, Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, and goes directly to Berlin. the east is dead, empty and not a nice place to be.

when i was first here i asked what the deal was with the bank holiday “Tag der Deutschen Einheit” it was explained to me as such….

it is the day that the Ossies (East Germans) celebrate and the day the Westies cry.

Personally i think Germany should break up into smaller states (as it was pre 1871) and start afresh. that way Bavaria can join Tirol/South Tirol and stop spunking money on keeping the East afloat.

just my 2c worth.

Had quite a few friends from the formed DDR some were older and had lived under the communist regime others were younger and had really only experienced a reunified Germany. Not entirely sure that it was quite as simple as you’ve painted it for your son. Not saying I’d make it any more complicated for a five year old, it’s just that all too often these things are grossly over simplified (see alpins comments above).

bank holiday “Tag der Deutschen Einheit”

that’s a bank holiday Saturday this year
could at least have the decency to move it to the Monday

My mum’s family were split up by the Zonengrenze (which was barely a mile out of town). An uncle escaped to the West with one suitcase. I think they were rather pleased to see re-unification.

that’s a bank holiday Saturday this year
could at least have the decency to move it to the Monday

Yay… Que armegeddon einkaufen on the Friday.

Hmm… many people I speak to here in the south couldn’t care much for the reunification. Admittedly they probably didn’t have families on the other side.

my Grandad used to work in the Embassy in Berlin
was always interesting hearing about the stories of having to drive from West to East and back in to West again in a Ford Anglia on diplomatic papers
and it’s only in recent years that the East-West autobahn is of acceptable modern day quality (and they’re still building new bits), so must have been quite a trek on roads back then

Similar view to alpin, we’ve some very good friends who have lived in Bavaria for generations, even now all these years post unification they still have very strong views on who’s should/shouldn’t be in their country.

Taking a brick into a school room simply signifies a wall doesn’t exist, political views and family disharmony does however.

Similar view to alpin, we’ve some very good friends who have lived in Bavaria for generations

Ah well down there they probably think Austria should be in and Schleswig Holstein should be out.

and it’s only in recent years that the East-West autobahn is of acceptable modern day quality (and they’re still building new bits), so must have been quite a trek on roads back then

You had a set time window in which you were required to make the journey so it was a very big contrast with the free for all on the motorways in the West.

Back in summer I met a 80y/o Tirolean lady. She was telling me how Bavaria and Tirol belonged together. Indeed they do have more in common with one another than the Bavarians do with Hessen, or Saxon, etc.
In fact the north Bavarians (the Franconians)(which if you ask a southern Bavarian isn’t really Bavaria (Bavaria stops at the Danube,everything else is Prussia)) has very little in common with southern Bavaria.

yup. actually the Ford Anglia may have been from when he got promoted and worked in Dusseldorf or Berne, so the Berlin car would have been even older and shonkier.
don’t recall the time limit, but it was something like 1 whole day, all of which would probably be needed back then.

Back in summer I met a 80y/o Tirolean lady. She was telling me how Bavaria and Tirol belonged together. Indeed they do have more in common with one another than the Bavarians do with Hessen, or Saxon, etc.

The same can be applied to many border regions. Austria/Italy for example or Ukraine/Russia perhaps?

Back in summer I met a 80y/o Tirolean lady. She was telling me how…

This sounds like the beginning of a David Cameron anecdote…

http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/toys/dave-met.php

don’t recall the time limit, but it was something like 1 whole day, all of which would probably be needed back then.

In the 70s it took about 2.5 hours from helmstedt (the only crossing UK service personnel could use) to berlin, the speed limit was 80 kmh I seem to remember.

i don’t know about the Ukraine (although they obvioulsy have ongoing issues 😉 ), but the border of Italy/Austria is a funny one. the land south of the watershed being annexed to Italy after WWI still grates most german speaking South Tiroleans of all generations even today.
the further north you get from Trentino the fewer people you will find willingly speaking italian. in some of the side valleys of the Etsch they don’t even know how to speak italian.
South Tirol pays way more than any other italian stae into the country’s purse, which is ironic as the majority don’t want to be part of it.

if you ever drive over the Brenner, exist before the top and drive the old road up. on the bridge you will find graffitti…. “1 Tirol” (although this can also be seen from the Autobahn, “italian on papaer, tirol in my heart” and my favourite “125km to the Banana Republic”.

remember… Süd Tirol ist nicht Italien!

http://www.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/south-tyrolean-freedom-movement/

i really, really, REALLY like Süd Tirol. i mog scho schehr Schüd Tirol.

rebuild it for all i care…..

3 billion a year comes from the two southern states, Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, and goes directly to Berlin. the east is dead, empty and not a nice place to be.

when i was first here i asked what the deal was with the bank holiday “Tag der Deutschen Einheit” it was explained to me as such….

it is the day that the Ossies (East Germans) celebrate and the day the Westies cry.

Personally i think Germany should break up into smaller states (as it was pre 1871) and start afresh. that way Bavaria can join Tirol/South Tirol and stop spunking money on keeping the East afloat.

just my 2c worth.

I think you’ve been spending too much time with Bavarians. Not really known for being the most outward looking and tolerant.

^^ nor have I ever been known for it. Perhaps that’s why I like it here. 😉

I’ve told him that you could see religion as being a little bit like the Berlin wall….

OP I was with you until this, he’s your kid and you are entitled to bring him up as you wish. If you are really anti religion then don’t be a hypocryt and send him to a faith school. Why not let his place go to someone who will embrace the faith aspects and get more out of the school ?

On religion why not start with the 10 commandments – seem pretty indisputable as a code for living together peacefully. Not bad for something that’s been around for 1000’s of years. I can understand people rejected creationism and having concerns about the control elements of religion but there has been far more good done than bad overall.

@geetee on a lighter note you should have found a video of the Hoff singing Freedom on the wall as it came down. Legendary stuff from Mr Knightrider

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNpCn0nAlR0[/video]

So Alpin you think that London should become a separate country and let the rest of the UK fend for itself? Because that’s exactly the scenario you are advocating for Southern Germany. The reality is that most East Germans who work in the eastern part of Germany earn a fraction of those Germans working in the western part doing exactly the same job.

Most Bavarians I’ve spoken to about this can’t comprehend anything about macro economics. All they see is that they are a very wealthy and industrious region which is propping up the whole of Germany and Europe.

The fact they rely massively on immigration and a devalued Euro to sustain this is of course not important, and they’d be much better off on their own.

Oh and the beer isn’t as good as is hyped up to be. Not particularly innovative, mostly good for washing away the taste of fermented cabbage and sausage which is the entirety of the cuisine on offer.

the way i see it, England, or indeed Britain, has been a country much longer than Germany has. it feels to me as though Germany isn’t really a country, except when it comes to world wars, euopean politics and football.
Bavaria, Prussia, Württemberg etc, were essentially their own countries with their own parliments and taxes before Bismarck came along.

If Bavaria were to go it alone it would be have one of the largest GPDs in Europe.

what grates me is that despite generally paying more in taxes than those in the east, why do those in the east recieve free child care whilst those in Munich have to contend with monthly rates upwards of 700€?

the east is funded by those in the west. i drove through lots of the old DDR this summer and whilst the landscapes are spectacular, many of the towns looked like shitholes and were deserted.

i know a fair few Ossies here in Munich. they are often keen to tell you how stupid the Bavarians are (oberbayern, allerdings), how much better things were previoulsy in the east, yet seem happy enough to live and work here.

many east germans (after a while of having known them) seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

as a friend recently said… get over it or get out.

woas hob i grad gsagt?
scheiss drauf… passt scho.

tom, i agree… their sausages are not a touch on those from the butcher in Boreham. however, if you take your time you’ll find lots of really good beers. much like the UK in that respect… go into a pub and you’ll assume that everyone drinks piss-poor belgian lager or australian imports.

Tegernseer Dunkles? mmmm….

take a trip through Franconia. lots of beers.

i don’t like Pils. i mag ah Helles….

Was the eastern half the poor relation pre partition?

The country has been unified for just over 20years after 50 years of separation. Give it at least another 50 years to see how it pans out.

i know a fair few Ossies here in Munich. they are often keen to tell you how stupid the Bavarians are (oberbayern, allerdings), how much better things were previoulsy in the east, yet seem happy enough to live and work here.

many east germans (after a while of having known them) seem to have a chip on their shoulder.

as a friend recently said… get over it or get out.

Like northerners in London 😉

OP I was with you until this, he’s your kid and you are entitled to bring him up as you wish. If you are really anti religion then don’t be a hypocryt and send him to a faith school. Why not let his place go to someone who will embrace the faith aspects and get more out of the school ?

It’s a fair point and the answer is that my wife is very religious and she wants him to go this school and it’s the best school in the town, although all the others are also very good and I would have been happy for him to go to any of them. But given we applied and he got a place, of course I am going to send him.

I struggle with the religious thing. I was brought up Catholic, went to a Catholic primary school. Didn’t have a good experienc there (see the Feminist thread). That’s not really the reason I am aetheist now and I am not really ‘anti religion’ so much as I feel that between my wife, his school and me, he needs a balanced perspective.

My point about the wall being a bit like relgion was, in truth, a bit of a troll and so I apologise for this. I say only a ‘bit’ of a troll, because it’s not a million miles from the truth is it. We are after all talking about an ideological divide between two groups who believe strongly that their view is the right one and the opposing view is potentially a threat. There are some parralells.

ANyway, as for giving the place to someone who does believe, I honestly think we should go the way of France and the US on this. Faith schools do in general do better than their agnostic equivalents. It seems very unfair that in order to get the best education you can without being able to afford private school fees, you have to sign up to someone else’s religion.

Understood geetee and an interesting response. I too did the whole Sunday school thing and my parents to this day speak of the Covent School I went to for a while being the worst school I attended by miles. I too think it is interesting that many of the best schools have a strong faith alliance, I don’t think it’s a co-incidence. I think more religious families are generally more pro-Education and that makes a huge difference in terms of engagement.

I think more religious families are generally more pro-Education and that makes a huge difference in terms of engagement.

There has to be an explanation of some sort and that one does seem plausible. I’ve often thought about it as well. There are also relationships between class and educational attainment; children from lower income/social status homes don’t do as well as those from higher ones, even accounting for the almost exclusive representation of higher income children in private school. I’ve met more than a few teachers who say that the difference in social status is that higher status families more readily buy into the value of education than lower status families – or to put it another way, the middle classes figured out a long time ago that education is the magic bullet. If there is also a correlation between propensity to follow a particular religion (and I’m not sure if it’s any religion or specifically christianity or if any of the Abrahamic faiths also show this trend)and class then you’d have a prett strong answer.

Was the eastern half the poor relation pre partition?

No the eastern part was the cultural centre of Germany (actually at this time it was the middle part as the eastern part was annexed into Poland after world war 2 hence it’s called Mitteldeutschland) before the war. A lot of Germany’s most famous artists, composers and writers came from the eastern states.