What makes a great course.

Of the ones i’ve done Newnham park had it all, of the conditions last year were sublime.
Catton is always mainly riding round the edge of fields

Eastnor has potential but when it’s wet it’s not motivating for some..

Without the ability to control weather what would make a course great no matter what?

Figures?
Lap distance…
Total ascent per lap….

What would be preferred climbing?

short and stabby
long forest road plods
steady and technical…

Descents are easy, flowing single track and not flat out forest road..

But how about steep sections?
Are these a pain and encourage bottlenecking and frustration…

From experience there’s such an array of ability everyone needs to catered for, it’s there a fair way to utilise a cheeky section to allow a bit of riders excitement without benefiting time over those less able or willing?

I have a plan so looking for lots of input, so i can scope out some land

uplift.

Something like an extended version of the Lee Quarry races would work for me. Of course it would be carnage in the wee small hours of the morning, but that’s mountain biking for you. I’m sure it would create huge bottlenecks, but I’m not even going to think about that… 🙂

One thing to consider as well as the actual riding potential is access, camping, proximity of campsite to arena, toilets, showers etc.

As for riding, it’s a difficult task – needs to be rideable by tired people in the dark yet also needs to be challenging to the pro-elite guys at speed. sapce for overtaking, space where technical skills are tested/required. Good mix of climbs and descents, ideally spread out so it’s not all one big up then one big down. As near to weather proof as any UK course ever gets or at least still rideable in the mud.

Might be scope to run a mini DH race along side during the weekend, If we can borrow the trailer, timing gear etc…. 😉

Access and area for camping, has already been taken into account..

I’ve done two 24hr events, one at Eastnor and one at an earlier mayhem venue, think it was trentham gardens? anyway, what i like would be a mixture of both. eastnor was a good track that had a bit of everything, the kenda climg knackered the legs but wasn’t impossible. The only problem with the eastnor track was that it was tacky, as in a bit slow. Yes I know the Scott boys did 38min laps but i’m only human.

It needs a good few bits of singletrack, steady climbs and interesting but not overly technical descents. I say this as when its getting towards the end of the race your shattered and mistakes happen easily.

But the most important thing for me is to try and get something on an all weather venue? something likle a trail centre type covering? At least then the weather would have a smaller effect. Eastnor was good this year but everyone was sleeping in fear that it would be the mub bath its once been.

Distance wise I think about 10 miles is about perfect and height gain I have no idea, i think that relative to the severity of the climbs, i prefer interesting forest climbs that aren’t massively steep and you can just grind away on, like the second climb at Eastnor to the tower thing and the dodgy descent. 😀

i’ve only done SITS last year and the Dyfi this year that fall into the enduro cat.

i would say that the Catton course was alright for those that want to just keep hammering the laps out. the windy singletrack through the wooded section was nice when dry and didnt bottleneck too much after the first few laps. i also liked the off-camber descent that dropped back into the village, mainly because it was muddy and the proper xc boys didnt know how to cope with it so i could just blast past about 20 at a time!

dyfi was too much firetrack if you ask me. i got quite bored at times. great descents mind, but lots of bottlenecking. don’t really know how you’d get around this being in a forest.

hmm…

course wise; 8-10 miles, combining the technicality of the strathpuffer course, the swoopyness of CLIC24’s course, the spectator points of mountain mayhem, the all-weatherproofness of SITS (JOKING),
1-2x steady long climbs, with lots of room for overtaking
lotsx short steep climbs to get you out of the saddle

camping and main arena right by the course
loads of bogs/showers
the ‘big race’ feeling of mountain mayhem, combined with the camraderie of strathpuffer, mixed with the out-of-the-box thinking of Hit the North, with the laid back vibes of CLIC24
and a beer tent to crawl into if it all goes wrong

good luck!

did i mention the uplift?

D2D has always been perfect IMO

Newnham last year is pretty much the best course I’ve ridden in a long time, though the previous years 24/12 course up on the Cotswolds was pretty good, shame about the rain before hand becuase it did turn into a bit of a slog.

Lap distance, I’d say up to about an hour for folk like us sharki
Total ascent, I’m happy to head for the sky all day provided the payback is good.

Technical and steep ascents tend to lead to loads of numpties walking up the climbs. Its really nice to have these bits in, but I’d try to keep those sections short, as people tend to walk slap bang in the middle of the course and riders that are trying to ride the course can’t get past.

Regards techy sections on descents, again, you risk loads of people walking it if its too much, which interupts everyone else. IME slower riders riding with the brakes clamped on are less of a disruption and easier to pass than five or six people clustered round the techy bit, off the bikes, holding a WI meeting. So any ‘techy’ bit probably needs to be rollable, or have a (much slower) chicken run.

Ideally, if you’re going to have 24h soloists out on course at the same time as teams, the majority need to be able to granny/roll round the course for the duration.

I like courses with a good bit of variety, shade on any long draggy climb is most welcome.

Did i mention the DH?
Uplift supplied by Woodlands riders.. 😉

we could put some climbs in at gawton. super-tavi for the DH section?

for me….

bike radar.

nothing TOO technical, picking your way over logs and rocks is NO fun at 4 in the morning when your hanging out your A*se

bits of “entertainment” availible, bombholes, northshore, for the more awake riders, but in general, i think the course should be fast as hell, and flowing, nothing that will create too much in the way of bottlenecks any more than switchbacks or tight turns.
oh, and some jumps!
table tops and rollers, that CAN be rolled through, but can also be cleared/doubled up for the gnarly crowd 😉

mainly, nothing that sucks the speed out of a trail, like a log that 2/3rds of riders would have to stop for.

at Bike radar there was on specific log, that was a **** to get over, but dooable, but if you remembered in time, and hung a hard right, almost doubling back on yourself, you could slot around it.
i found that fun, timing dumping all the gears and making the wiggle through as smooth as posible, while the log itself was a pit of carnage.

😀

lap length, 2 or 3 miles.

i find that SOME (read SOME not all) of the climbing needs to be on fire road or open trails as that is generally where the teams will pass the soloists (having been on both fast teams and being a soloist at different events) I find you can generally hold your own on the downhills as a soloist but on the tech climbs its hard to A get out the way and B keep the speed up to stay out the way

Relentless is a good example as is the strathpuffer

I really enjoyed mayhem last year due to the lack of climbing per lap !

Kirroughtree would be a good 24 hour course imho… interesting and plenty of passing places (exhibited at 10 @ kirroughtree being very highl rated)

Lap length 3 or 3 miles?

That’ll be the first climb alone….. 😉

Id like a 24hr race at inners, upto the first fireroad the back down using the bottom half of the DH track (ie. about a million lines to choose so you should never get stuck behind an ex-roadie)

I would say the “12hr Dawn Raid” was the best course i’ve done, out of a few 10’s,puffer,enduro’s etc…
The laps were (for me) around 25mins, which meant you could pace yourself easier than a big 60min lap, plus i got more of a boost when i knew i’d be back through the finish quickly, as a posed to having done 30mins and knowing you’re only half way around.

For me, the course had a good mix of up’s and down’s and technical sections, with the usual big 1hr first lap to help split it up.

Camping was only 10seconds away from the start/finish, so very easy to dive in and get anything that was needed.

I liked Trentham followed by Sandwell, but I look at them through the eyes of a soloist. So I like a course that is 100% rideable every lap though it could ‘contain scenes of mild interest’.
But I realize that is going to bore the pants of the guys only doing one or two laps.
Put it this way the earlier Eastnor courses were too relentless for me riding solo.
Oh and I prefer longer laps. I’m sure I did a 24 that ran a sub two mile course, I only lasted a few hours before it did my nut in. I went to Cwm Carn IIRC that day instead.

I quite liked trentham too, some decent singletrack and a good bit of variety, some interesting steep corners. Sandwell was OK but too flat. Eastnor bores the living heebie jeebies out of me. The 2005 Eastnor course was OK, landrover climb was tricky in the wet, slightly marred by 2 abreast walkers, there was a good descent out the back somewhere and the bombhole.

The two 24/12 courses I’ve done have been ace. As a soloist I like the format of the CLIC, long swoopy descent, long draggy climb, repeat. Would be 100% better still without the road section.

2 or 3 miles would be a ridiculous lap, and would limit entry numbers vastly. I seem to remember around 50 riders/mile is a sensible number, but that may be for XC racing, if it’s different. I’d say 8-10 miles is a realistic and sensible prospect.

I think all 24s are a victim of their own success, the very fact you have Elite riders knocking out sub 40 minute laps on the same course as soloists are doing 2 hour laps means that you’re gonna be very very limited in the scope of the course. Any long singletrack sections are going to become bottlenecks very quickly.

Dusk ’til Dawn does do very well, but Thetford’s unusual in having no real climbs, which is where most of the speed difference will show up.

Really you want a bit of everything. Frankly I’d avoid having any man made jumps/ obstacles even if they are rollable, people will hit them full bore having not prepared themselves for a jump.

Set2Rise this year – perfect. I’ve done 2 Clic courses, Trentham, D2D Thetford (which I did also really enjoy).. never done MM..

Last years had an annoying bordering unrideable lip (didn’t see many people clean it, I did it once from 6 laps).

This years was just spot on. Bit of grass track and road for overtaking/taking a break, lots of top notch singletrack, fair bit of climbing but nothing excessive, nothing unrideable but a few bits that made you go ‘wooooah!’

Well I have very little experience of racing ( 1 24 team, 1 24 solo and the tandem at ten under)

Lap 7-10 miles
Techy obstacles well marked with chicken runs that take 20 seconds longer – got to give the real riders an advantage. 10 under the year we did it had a short steep singletrack climb or a forestry road that was quite a bit longer. Other stuff could be done like the new climb at GT. Riders are not allowed to run down or up the techy bit – marshalls and a “sin bin” for those who don’t clear the obstacle)

Plenty of room for overtaking – speed disparity can be high short single track sections

No ‘orrible sticky mud Mud is good, ‘orrible sticky clag is not.

Even for a very average rider like me the SITS course was dull as ****.

Climbing – plenty per lap. thousand feet or two. One short testing climb to give advantage to the more skilled riders, some double track climbing to thin the field out

all the climbs bar one at 24/12 were both weatherproof and wide. Oh and you almost didn’t realise the bluebell woods at the top was done the uphill way round. This was the place where i noticed overtaking people or being overtaken the most. The narrow one up to the farm would have been a bit of a bottleneck if it was really wet. And the descents usually lost height quite slowly (again, quite a bit of the cottage run is uphill but only just…) so you felt you were getting more fun per lap.

A few clearly marked ‘man lines’ which save faster and more skillful riders a few seconds on the downhills would help overtaking as bottlenecks aplenty on odd tricky/tech sections. I liked the ‘splitter’ at newnham as particularly on the night laps you just took the trail the person in front didn’t take rather than getting stuck behind them. Although I didn’t feel i rode either line much faster than the other.

For me, the space between riders was great and conversely the lack of it at cheddar last year was rather frustrating.

the change over pits should be defined and different from the through-lap-run.

bike radar suffered a bit from people milling in the middle of the track, not using the pit lane.

if I were doing it, i would have the loop return to camp twice, and on each occasion, run it THROUGH a beer tent 😀

standing and sitting around swigging ale and tipples, while racers swoop past through the end of the marquee.

wicked!

set 2 rise this year was truly brilliant – nto sure how it would cope with hundreds more riders, but as a 5-600 capacity event it was ace.

Climbing – I’d say a short stab somewhere along the course that was reasonably technical with some line choices to avoid bottlenecks. I’d aldos say that 2-3 climbs over an 8 mile lap make for some good psychological milestones – especially for beginners who struggle in the night.

as you said – single track descents or wide open yet less steep descents work well – I felt that at OSMM you lost a lot of altitude very quickly. Pedally singletrack keeps it interesting and fast while not losign so much height. How about a mix of Set2Rise and Bikeradar? Eastnor is an awesome event, not because of the course, but the size and sheer number of abilities/riders/stuff/festival atmosphere.

Camping,toilets,cooking,showers are all good things. One other aspect which is a nice edition is a main arena or camping area where the race can pass a couple of times a lap, and hence team mates can easily pop onto the course to cheer their mates on/take pictures. In this way, the G2 revolver (rebranded as the Brighton Big Dog, which is going to be an awesome event – sign up soon!)is a really excellent event…..

If you find a venue with the above, I’ll be there with bells on!

Trentham was great 🙂

lol i was worried about doing a 4 hours enduro race with an 8km lap for fear of getting dizzy … i cant imagine a 3 mile lap on a 24 ….talk about boring !

Forgot about Set2Rise. did that last year it was a great little course. I only had to dab at that rocky bit at the climb t-junction and I’m a serial dabber.

As a soloist, I reckon the hardest thing is the fresh fast team riders coming through in the small hours. Because my reactions are slowed right down by then, I usually end up jumping off my bike to make room on the track – it seriously stuffs up my already slow lap times 🙁

The obvious cure is to make team riders carry the heaviest member of the team on their back. (Fantasy thought from the last ‘Puffer)

Chicken runs would be nice too. I can’t afford to be injured (old and frail) so I don’t risk the technical stuff in a long race when I’m knackered. Better to be chicken than scrambled egg.

The ‘Puffer has a nice long climb at the start – this is a great way to spread out the field so you don’t have a long straggly walking queue for the first few minutes of the race.

But what really makes a great course is coming over a rise at dark o’clock and seeing the full moon rising over a mountain.

The atmosphere of the course is really important, which is where MM gets it right. You’ve got the sections through the camp site with cheering and comedy heckles, then in other bits you’re off on your own in the woods.

All chicken lines will lead to a half pint sin bin stop.

Full pint surely?

Don’t send people round the edge of a freshly ploughed field. It’s called mountain biking, not Lincolnshire biking.

I think a full pint of Industro-Oven-Brite Whisky is enough to kill a man.

I’m with Mr agreeable – the atmosphere created by the course going through the camp is important. OSMM is great for this.

A good mixture of stuff is important as well – some interesting and also some boring. For me a 24hr event has to make you want to do some parts and dread others. Having a long slog, while not fun at the time, is fine is there is a fun sweeping downhill or singletrack after it.

also you’ll never get it right as some people will always complain.

i liked the 3 mile short lap, made for some death or glory lap times.

pedaly singletrack thats good enough that your happy to do it over and over, cause it brings a smile 🙂

A lap WILL be around the 9/10 mile mark.

Efforts to get send riders through the camp sight maybe difficult, but understand how important is can be.

However the course going through a covered bar/lounge area is achievable, but for the riders safety this may cause issues that will need careful planning.

I think a half pint is more than enough, the course will be relativity non technical (which by my standards maybe having rooty as **** sections).

I’m thinking about a 6hr route switch which will put riders on a whole new course for a 6 hr duration, which will switch back to the former on the 12hr mark, this might be an interesting format to marshall and make fair, but will make for a more fun and interesting event…….Just an idea, but understand the difficulties it will give.

For the night laps a motivational pole dancer will be performing somewhere along the course, as a last resort it will be me.

If it all works out and i really can get this up and running, would be good to run a Mini DH event along side, this may well work as part of a 6hr event, meaning riders entering the 6hr on the saturday, get to do a Mini DH race on the sunday, where you’ll get 2 practice runs and one timed run on an old school style course…same bike as used for the 6hr….

After riding Techy sections will include a rewarding

Trentham was awesome, easily the most entertaining course.

Hit the North was great in a really quite unpleasant way, which was pretty good.

D2D is pretty tedious imo.

Mayhem at Eastnor is ok, some okish bits but marred by too many shit bits.

More constructively, I think the course should be entertaining, not necessarily bloody difficult, but fun, after 24 hours it’s all pretty tough and if it’s fun you can live with it being tough, if it’s ‘ok’ then tough is a bit of an arse.

One thing to consider is that the guys riding solo don’t get much benefit from the entertainment, facilities etc, but it’s an essential to keep their support crews motivated because they are hanging around for a long time with very little to do.

What is important is clean loos. I’d sooner sh1t myself than use the loos at most endurance events, but at least I can make a deposit somewhere around the course 🙂 Unfortunately my support crew, does not have this option, and is always threatening to not come to another race. (The best loos I’ve seen were at Bristol for the SSUK07.)

Keep the support people happy and we can keep racing.