As far as I can tell most clipless pedal systems set you up with the ball of your foot over the pedal axle. But with flats the advice is to have your foot a bit further forward. Why is that? Surely the optimum foot position should be the same regardless of whether your foot is attached to the pedal or not.

I go for ball for pedalling up hill or spinny smooth stuff. Downhill/stand up singletrack stuff I move my feet forward for a bit more stability and less ankle stress.

Edit. I also find I can curl my toes over the front of the pedal too for a bit more grip. (for reference I run v12s and cosmetic seconds, skate shoes that sports direct knocks out cheap)

Edit 2. Bez said it better but because you can move your feet you can keep that pedalling efficiency when you want to (to within the limits of the grip that flats have vs. Spds)

Because clipless are all about pedalling efficiency and keep you stuck to the pedal, whereas with flats you need to provide your own stability and the ability to manipulate the bike with your feet. The best position for that is with your ball between the front pins and the axle, and your big toe able to grip the front pins.

http://pelotonmagazine.com/pages/from-inside-peloton-adam-hansen/

OK, thanks. That makes sense I guess.

So, pedal over the axle is the most efficient position, but not best for grip and moving the bike around if you are using flats.

Pedalling with the pedal towards the middle of your foot is probably more efficient then if you had the pedal under the ball of your foot anyway.

Only thing that I’ve found not as good is a hard sprint, where towards the ball of the foot is better.

So, pedal over the axle is the most efficient position

No; ignore posters above, I doubt they know what they’re talking about 😉

As has been said I think with flats going down, getting your toes over the front of the pedal helps with grip.

Riding flats for the first time in 20odd years tomorrow, on a hard tail for the first time in over a year 😕
It was all about toe straps when I started off riding…… 🙄
Might all end in tears 😥

dogmatix – Member
As has been said I think with flats going down, getting your toes over the front of the pedal helps with grip.

Aye, but what us it that stops you getting bucked off at the first bump on the trail, or when descending local off piste/Enduro trails ❓

Aye, but what us it that stops you getting bucked off at the first bump on the trail, or when descending local off piste/Enduro trails

Dropping your heels 🙂

James Wilson is very pro-flats and has some good blog posts about the pros/cons of each. This one here is all about foot position –

Why you don’t want to push through the ball of your foot when you pedal.

And I’m sure Lee McCormack (leelikebikes.com) has posted about it previously, but his site isn’t as easy to search.

Lee likes to get all technical/geeky about bike things, and has a few articles looking at the body/bike contact/mechanics. His last post I read was about handlebar width, and how wider is actually worse for your shoulders.

Spin on the ball of your feet, centre of the ball of your foot on the centre of the pedal axle. Go downhill on the arches of your feet with your heels dipped (and arse over the back of the seat.). Adjust for other eventualities as comfortable dictates.

When I’m out riding with my son I’m always trying to get him to move his foot back a bit. He just seems to naturally set up with the arch over the axle, which is what I used to do before I was told that it was wrong (and now it feels wrong)!

Aye, but what us it that stops you getting bucked off at the first bump on the trail, or when descending local off piste/Enduro trails
Dropping your heels

This I know, didn’t work last time out 🙄

The foot position you’re forced into by clips is a hangover from their XC/roadie roots – cleat positions are moving further rearwards on newer trail/DH shoes. If you don’t think about it for long enough your feet find the most natural position for your pedalling style and bike fit – bear in mind that a seat angle which isn’t steep enough may cause your feet to drift backwards and vice versa.

Spin on the ball of your feet, centre of the ball of your foot on the centre of the pedal axle. Go downhill on the arches of your feet with your heels dipped (and arse over the back of the seat.). Adjust for other eventualities as comfortable dictates.

Arse over the back of the seat? Why? Surely for max grip you want your weight between a vertical line from both hubs.

I just had a look at the pin marks on my 5.10s – the front pins are directly below the front lace holes and the rear pins level with the front of the shoe cuff. I think my pedalling technique gets me up hills faster than my middling fitness justifies and I can’t remember the last time I lost a foot on a descent.

If you generate your power from your hips then it works far better to drive through the centre of the foot, pushing your heels, than through your toes/ball. Pedalling is not like running!

I set my cleats to the back of the slot, this puts the pedal axle between the arch and the ball, I use the deore trail pedal. I used to have the cleats further forward above the ball, a hangover from riding XC.
I now find that I struggle to unclip if I need to get out in a hurry, due to the reduction in the release angle, but I think a pedal with a longer spindle might help. Anyone know if the XT trail pedal has a longer spindle? i.e. moving the pedal further away from the crank arm. It looks like it does.

Dropping your heels

IME: front heel down, rear heel up. I find pushing back on the rear pedal gives way more control. YMMV.

The Mallet dh does, it’s nicely just a bit further out and more stable.

wanmankylung – Member
Spin on the ball of your feet, centre of the ball of your foot on the centre of the pedal axle. Go downhill on the arches of your feet with your heels dipped (and arse over the back of the seat.). Adjust for other eventualities as comfortable dictates.
Arse over the back of the seat? Why? Surely for max grip you want your weight between a vertical line from both hubs.

feel free to move about and adjust position to suit whenever, obviously if you are peddling downhill it’s a different story.

tbh, on the ball of the foot and heels dipped are just a rough guideline, on flats the benefit of them is the ability to continually change foot and body position as required.

Just set the cleat to the back so the ball of the foot is in front of the axle.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/why-you-dont-want-to-push-through-the-ball-of-your-foot-when-you-pedal-2014.html

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html

The foot position you’re forced into by clips is a hangover from their XC/roadie roots – cleat positions are moving further rearwards on newer trail/DH shoes.

This, I’ve alway had to drill out shoes to try to get the cleats as far back as possible for a better position on the pedal.

YMMV.

Best answer there is.

I ride with mu foot in the same position on flats or clips, I think it was just ‘normal’ to try an replicate the SPD position, it took a while to convince myself that it was right but eventually it became 2nd nature.

This was in the days before flat pedals were an option outside dirt-jumping, and the internet would tell you that you were wrong about something as trivial* as foot position and would die horribly if you tried them.

*OK, it’s actually quite important, but it’s probably not that one thing thats holding you back from the podium.

its to do with flexion of the foot when your are unweighted. if you ride flats and your fooot cant revolve around axel in flexion your feet come off as you effectively kick the bike away from you

That Adam Hansen link:

crank length did mean something; it affects Newton meters—and Newton meters equals watts times cadence. So, with a longer crank you produce more power.

Wot?

From the pinkbike one:

Your body, which is infinitely smarter than all of the experts

That’s total bollocks.

Wot?

Don’t you understand? If you wear stilts and use a massive crank you will instantly have massive power in your legs. It’s how I tuned my car engine to 800bhp by simply installing a massive crankshaft and longer conrods.

Or it might be that someone knows some physics words but no actual physics. Apparently you can’t just take three quantities and make up your own equation. Who knew?

That’s total bollocks.

To be fair, if the “experts” are saying that torque equals power times cadence, it doesn’t take too much to be infinitely smarter.

Point is that what your body “naturally” does is driven by a whole host of factors. If it instinctively knew what to do then no-one would ever need coaching in anything.

its all personal preferance. I’ve played around with cleat position and i like it nearer teh ball. for me it feels wrong too far back (i do have low ish mobility in my ankles which may have something to do with this)

previously i used flats for 10 years and defaulted to mid foot and still do. although if i’m spinny saddle climbing i’ll try and get my foot back a bit.

if you are getting bounced off flats you are not bending your knees enough/being relaxed enough.

I also like to run a good inch lower saddle to compensate for using flats. i also like my saddle to be further forward to compensate the more forward foot position.

i do a lot of experimenting/thinking on my commutes. especially on the big sodding hill which is a good for comparisons.

in my experience clips are way more efficient on the body for pedalling about. i get much less fatigued using them. less fun for messing about in the woods though. although i`m pretty much a clip convert now.

another interesting conclusion i have is regarding bike fit. Ive got a cannondale HT which, when i use clips i love it, however when i use flats it feels a good inch too short in teh front. which i think demonstrates its not quite so simple as just changing pedals and seeing. swapping to flats changes teh balance and fit of a bike

Fabian Barrel advocates moving the cleats back. https://vimeo.com/30128286
We drilled the slots further back on her AM45s when the GF switched to SPDs as she found she was less stable with the standard position (She’d switched from DH and 5.10s and wanted her feet to stop getting bucked on really rough tracks). She’s found them to be much better at speed and not really compromised her pedalling.

I can happily switch between SPD and flats on my MTB and have found I’m no quicker up or down with either. I tend to swap for a least 6 months at a time to make sure I give them a fair trial (both XC and DH). The main reason I’m running flats at present is that I have a spare pair for the wet weather.

Tom kp

I rode flats both on my commuter and on my off road bikes for a few months and found that my riding position changed- my feet were positioned further forward to find a comfortable spot to rest on the flats I was using. Found I was sitting further back with the saddle slightly lower and my legs stretched forward. My feet gravitated forward in the pedal to find comfortable spot- it wasn’t a conscious decision. Wasn’t ideal TBH, definitely enjoying using SPDs again.

POWER TO THE PEDAL – CLEAT POSITION

http://www.bikejames.com/strength-training/barefoot-pedaling-flat-pedals/

I don’t ride flats at all, but I’ve found my cleat position (on mountain bikes) gradually moving back, so now the ball sits in front of the axle when clipped in. I think some of this came from wanting to get more feel back through my feet and also reducing the impact load on the ankle through drops and hits. It’s aiming for that balanced feel – through the centre of the feet, both feet, to both wheels. Probably influenced by messing around quite a bit getting my skiing set up right.

To be fair, if the “experts” are saying that torque equals power times cadence, it doesn’t take too much to be infinitely smarter.

Hmm I’m an accountant with a bit of an interest in engineering and limited googling tells me

Power = torque x rpm.

Therefore torque = power / rpm

Why are these people allowed to get such basic stuff wrong aaaaaggghhhh!

And relax

He’s trying to say that if you have longer crnks then you get more torque, which would equal more power but you’d have to move your legs further. Longer cranks just give you a lower gear, they don’t get you more power from thin air.

I have tried flats a few times but my inherent lazyness meant i just reverted back to clips when my feet started flying off the pedals when i was unweighted. Unfortunately for my lazy self i am having a bit of knee trouble and i am going to give flats more than a 2 hour go now.

So on that note what the hell do i do with them when i am unweighted? Front heel down and rear up and kinda squeeze? If you know what i mean 🙂