Following on from the are you leaning towards Leftism. Labour = country is skint

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  • Following on from the are you leaning towards Leftism. Labour = country is skint
  • Junkyard
    Member

    http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_20th_century_chart.html

    This graph shows the % of GDP that was govt spending. You can alter criteria but cannot show pic. It starts at 0 as well
    I think with the reduction in % of those in employment coupled with the increase in pensions and in an increasing aging population- does the aging population account for the increased benefits spending? – probably skews the figures though.
    Would seem labour spend a few % points more than The Tories – It would seem unlikely this is enough to destabalise the economy.
    Lets not forget Black Wednesday and the Tories spectacular crash from the ERM and how much that cost us whilst we are thinking they are ace at economics.

    i would suspect – using the data from here- it is the guardian mind would suggest new labour spent a lower % of GDP than thatcher though their peak was higher. Buying the banks he said being econimical with the truth
    As I said Tories like to think they are best but not sure there is much to choose between them it is just down to your big givt V small govt and low taxes. The “facts” are not that conclusive either way. that is each “side” can throw stats about to support their view – this pretty much sums up my opinion of economics

    [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JasspqyKC7Y[/video]

    richcc
    Member

    Kind of tangential but I heard an interesting piece on the radio regarding the lag between spending and seeing social benefits. Ie labour govt spends money on Sure Start centres. Tories axe them when next in govt ‘cos they can’t see results. Results come through after a few years and Tories get to say how well giving people no support has worked out. Really the inverse of financial boom and bust is societal boom and bust

    Premier Icon chickenman
    Subscriber

    Whilst I do agree with some of the Tory focus on the economy and their ideas of wealth creation, deregulation etc; what I fear is going to happen is that although international confidence in the our ability to repay our debt will increase (meaning no greece/ireland scenario here),the deficit gets only slightly reduced at the cost of there being almost no one in a job in this country and another generation of jobless is spawned.
    When you go to Europe you don’t run into the vast numbers of people who simply don’t give a **** about the community they live in. This is Thatcher’s legacy I’m afraid and is the inevitable consequence of saying it’s money that matters, not people.
    How do countries like France still have a manufacturing base? Simple: They think it’s better to subsidize manufacturing than to pay people to sit and do nothing!

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    When you go to Europe you don’t run into the vast numbers of people who simply don’t give a **** about the community they live in

    You don’t run into them, but that doesn’t mean they’re not there.

    Inbred456
    Member

    I think that at the moment if your left or right biased in your political leanings it doesn’t really matter a jot unless your a politician. They are all laughing at us from there big clubhouse in London. No party will implement big change and plan for the future say in 10 or 20yrs time because it wont benefit them at the present. All our political parties are so short sighted and only seem bothered in the here and now. I’m off for a Fursty Ferret.

    mudshark
    Member

    We’re 2 places lower than we used to be…

    brooess
    Member

    Careful now, this is in danger of becoming a reasoned fact-based debate with lots of mature commentary and general consensus.
    Not the STW way, people!
    🙂

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    Cant imagine why… 😉

    5thElefant
    Member

    Shhh… they might appear.

    Premier Icon igm
    Subscriber

    chickenman – Member
    Whilst I do agree with some of the Tory focus on the economy and their ideas of wealth creation, deregulation etc

    A bit more regulation of those wealth creating banks might have helped to not trash the economy. That said neither hue of party has regulated them properly.

    Incidentally, I work in electricity where the heavily regulated distribution area has reduced prices, invested more and increased service levels, while the de-regulated supply area (the ones you buy your electricity from) appear to be acting as a cartel.

    Junkyard
    Member

    realises he is out numbered runs away
    Actually i will bite but tomorrow I am busy now. Been a while since stoner kicked my arse on an economics thread 😉 and 😳

    joemarshall
    Member

    When you go to Europe you don’t run into the vast numbers of people who simply don’t give a **** about the community they ive in.

    Obviously never been to the suburbs of Paris, or the wrong end of central Athens then! Very few places in the UK with a similar level of scariness, even when they’re not currently having a riot.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    Isn’t this a bit like arguing which is the better of syphillis or gonorrhea?

    I just did that political compass assessment – turns out I’m closest to Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and the Green Party! I wish the last government had controlled spending better and I’m broadly supportive of the coalition. I hate excess governance and traditional “we want to tell you how you should live your life” socialist behaviour but conversely I don’t trust big business to work for the good of humanity as it’s too obsessed with short-term shareholder goals. Note that one of the most successful financiers Warren Buffet is successful because he goes against the grain and works for the benefit of the company and its employees – and in the longterm the shareholders win too!

    I don’t believe such brief political terms or the democratic process reward brave selfless behaviour from politicians but I can’t think of a better solution.

    I hope that rising oil prices and overseas labour costs drive some growth in UK manufacturing so we have a more balanced economy and school kids can look forward to a wider variety of careers and hopefully more apprenticeships for those that want to develop a trade but aren’t academically inclined or are sick of theoretical education.

    Premier Icon stumpyjon
    Subscriber

    chiefgrooveguru

    Yeah I’ve just shockingly had the same experience. I have to say I’ve come to the conclusion that the politicians are no better than big business, in fact big buisness is more honest as it doesn’t pretend to be trying to improve our lives and be working for us.

    juan
    Member

    When you go to Europe you don’t run into the vast numbers of people who simply don’t give a **** about the community they live in

    Well first I never ran to any off them in my 4 years in the UK. Second you should run Europe a bit more widely than just the slopes of switz ski resort…

    druidh
    Member

    I pity the politicians. The truth is that most people in this country vote with their wallet – “who promises to give me / let me keep more money”? *

    So a new lot get in and whatever their ideals, they’re given 5 years to put everything right, to overcome decades of mismanagement. If they can’t turn the whole ship around in that time, they’re out on their collectives arses and the next lot are brought in to start the whole thing all over again.

    If the Tories can be accused of lining the pockets of themselves and their mates, at least there’s a certain honesty about it. The Labour party can never fulfil their expectations. As soon as they “improve” the lot of their core voters, they switch to being Tory. Hence, they can only stay in power by ensuring the UK is continually under-achieving. Tony Blair swung it by looking and sounding like a Tory and letting his subordinates fly the red flag in the areas where they’d vote for a monkey if it wore a red rosette.

    * The exceptions?

    1/ Greens. Some voters actually care more about the environment than the state of their personal finances. Of course, of course it’s easier to be so caring if you are already reasonably well off.

    2/ Nationalists. Those who have a patriotism which surpasses their individual desire for more wealth. Of course the parties offering this tend to be “middle ground” as they are, essentially, two parties fighting together until they achieve independence.

    El-bent
    Member

    Am i right in thinking that in general when Labour have looked after the purse strings, the country has ended up penniless and then the Tories have had to come over all austere and sort things out?

    If only it was so black and white. The previous labour Government followed tory economic policies…the same sort of policies the Tories continued to condone until the last economic crash and probably still condone in private today.

    What labour did do is rack up debt in relation to public services, by promising the electorate improved services. The electorate wanted it, but didn’t want to pay for it in tax increases. Large debts were racked up throughout the world in many different countries with many different flavours of Government in power.

    You could look at the presidency of George W. Bush, certainly a right leaning gentlemen, but racked up the debt and ultimately it was the US where the financial trouble really started.

    I bet the Chinese were shouting “we’ve got them by the b*lls!” when they bought a load of US debt.

    The truth is that most people in this country vote with their wallet

    Regardless of politicians or bankers, the responsibility comes down to joe public. We get the politicians we deserve, and we’ve got the World i’m sure many right thinking people would not be too proud to pass on to our Children.

    juan
    Member

    Regardless of politicians or bankers, the responsibility comes down to joe public. We get the politicians we deserve, and we’ve got the World i’m sure many right thinking people would not be too proud to pass on to our Children.

    Amen to that. We reach the point where we just cannot push problems to the next generation. Pollution, economy, social welfare we have reach the end of the journey. We can’t sustain the world as it is right now, and we can’t pay for the necessary services. I wouldn’t want to be a father right now

    Berm Bandit
    Member

    The problem with democracy is that you have to persuade half wits to vote for you. 😉

    bassspine
    Member

    just to check – reducing the defecit has nothing to do with reducing national debt. All these cuts at the moment are about the defecit.

    National defecit is the difference between govt spending and govt income (taxes).
    National debt is how much the government owes.

    Premier Icon ahwiles
    Subscriber

    mudshark – Member

    We’re 2 places lower than we used to be…

    good! – we’re surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce.

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    bassspine – well obviously there is a link…

    If you run a substantial deficit you will obviously be increasing your national debt.

    Interesting and related article on the radio this morning discussing the American deficit and how at its current rate of increase will be 110% of GDP in a decade. It also eluded to the relative deficits (taking into account size of economy) in this country being very similar. Given all political parties in the US are to the right of even the tories here that rather debunks the stereotype of left right fiscal policy.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    good! – we’re surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce.

    Erm….

    Premier Icon Stoner
    Subscriber

    convert, the distinction between deficit and debt is important when you’re highlighting the structural deficit. This is that part of the deficit that doesn’t get cancelled out by revenues from increases in GDP and is fundamentally the part of national expenditure that the current government are focussing on reducing.

    As you imply you’d expect a surplus to erode a debt, a deficit to increase it. However, with a substantial structural element of the costs of running the country it’s very hard (almost impossible) to get into surplus again so you rely upon favourable interest rates and inflation to fund the short fall over the longer term.

    Elfinsafety
    Member

    How lovely. Yet another thread about how the country is ‘skint’, full of arguing discussion between people who generally aren’t actually ‘skint’….

    Zulu-Eleven
    Member

    As opposed to another discussion about Cuts, when government spending has risen?

    Premier Icon Woody
    Subscriber

    How lovely. Yet another thread about how the country is ‘skint’, full of arguing discussion between people who generally aren’t actually ‘skint’….

    ……and your point is?

    Premier Icon ahwiles
    Subscriber

    Elfinsafety – Member

    “good! – we’re surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce”

    Erm….

    what’s your point?

    are you trying to suggest that we don’t make things anymore? – cos you’d be dead wrong.

    we’re great at making expensive bits of specialist kit, if more people around the world can afford them then that’s a good thing, isn’t it? – i’ll give you a clue: it is.

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