Z11, can you normalise those graphs for inflation?
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Following on from the are you leaning towards Leftism. Labour = country is skint
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Posted 1 year ago #
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grips, the upper one is. I imagine (hope!) the bottom one is nominal.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The basic deal is that when the tories are in they cut public services for all they are worth, they always do and they are doing it again now. Simple examples that bear comparision with now would be the vicious armed forces cuts in the first years of Thatchers government that left the country without credible air and sea cover....(ringing any bells?). Anyone with a brain will remember the huge issue prior to the 97 election, that being hospital waiting lists. Anyone hearing much on that front now? No, well get ready because you will be soon. So what happens?
Well having had the snot cut out of public services throughout a Tory governmment, the following Labour one will try to rectify the situation. Much as they have with the NHS over the term of the last Labour government.
The big problem is that neither approach is without its shortcomings, the Tory one being that they tend to give money away to their mates instead of doing anything more sensible with it, and the labour one being that they tend to over regulate. The big hope at the last election was that between a hung parliament and the MP's expenses scandal we might at long last see a lasting change in the Whitehall farce. However the optimists amoongst us didn't bank on the complete lack of spine currently being exhibited by Clegg and his accolytes. So it opportunity missed, and yet another complete cluster fudge for the man in the street.
For the record, the misdemeanours of the banks is the reason for the cash crisis. That is directly traceable back to the behaviour of Thatchers government in deregulating the banking system. It is not disputable. Prior to that to obtain a bank loan you had to have an interview with the bank manager to prove that you had good reason to borrow and the wherewithal to pay it back, for example to borrow money to buy a car they would be looking for you to have a 1/3rd deposit AND prove that you need it and could pay for it. To get a mortgage you would be very lucky to borrow more than twice the main wage earners basic salary. Credit cards were unheard of. Don't kid yourself about it, once Pandoras box was open Brown and Blair could not realistically have done anything about it without creating an earlier crisis. Thatcher and Lawson created the house of cards, both them and their mates have been feeding from the trough ever since, and it seems like they will continue to do so ever since this weeks abject failure to deal with properly with the banks occurred.
If you don't believe me check it out, then get your Tory boy heads together and justify the FC sell off. Its politcal dogma, based on self interest, no more, no less.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oh yes, I see that top one.. and I also see it's not got a zero origin to make it look worse.. GRR bloody politics
Posted 1 year ago # -
and I also see it's not got a zero origin to make it look worse.. GRR bloody politics
I know what you mean - that graph makes a 25% increase in expenditure look a lot more.
And in the 2nd graph.....
we can see what happened to social security spending during the boom years of the last government.
Bollox! What I see there is a linear increase going right back to the 70s with very little fluctuation from the unerlying trend in spending patterns irrespective of political policy.Posted 1 year ago # -
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_20th_century_chart.html
This graph shows the % of GDP that was govt spending. You can alter criteria but cannot show pic. It starts at 0 as well
I think with the reduction in % of those in employment coupled with the increase in pensions and in an increasing aging population- does the aging population account for the increased benefits spending? - probably skews the figures though.
Would seem labour spend a few % points more than The Tories - It would seem unlikely this is enough to destabalise the economy.
Lets not forget Black Wednesday and the Tories spectacular crash from the ERM and how much that cost us whilst we are thinking they are ace at economics.i would suspect - using the data from here- it is the guardian mind would suggest new labour spent a lower % of GDP than thatcher though their peak was higher. Buying the banks he said being econimical with the truth
As I said Tories like to think they are best but not sure there is much to choose between them it is just down to your big givt V small govt and low taxes. The "facts" are not that conclusive either way. that is each "side" can throw stats about to support their view - this pretty much sums up my opinion of economicsPosted 1 year ago # -
Posted 1 year ago #
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Kind of tangential but I heard an interesting piece on the radio regarding the lag between spending and seeing social benefits. Ie labour govt spends money on Sure Start centres. Tories axe them when next in govt 'cos they can't see results. Results come through after a few years and Tories get to say how well giving people no support has worked out. Really the inverse of financial boom and bust is societal boom and bust
Posted 1 year ago # -
Whilst I do agree with some of the Tory focus on the economy and their ideas of wealth creation, deregulation etc; what I fear is going to happen is that although international confidence in the our ability to repay our debt will increase (meaning no greece/ireland scenario here),the deficit gets only slightly reduced at the cost of there being almost no one in a job in this country and another generation of jobless is spawned.
When you go to Europe you don't run into the vast numbers of people who simply don't give a **** about the community they live in. This is Thatcher's legacy I'm afraid and is the inevitable consequence of saying it's money that matters, not people.
How do countries like France still have a manufacturing base? Simple: They think it's better to subsidize manufacturing than to pay people to sit and do nothing!Posted 1 year ago # -
When you go to Europe you don't run into the vast numbers of people who simply don't give a **** about the community they live in
You don't run into them, but that doesn't mean they're not there.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I think that at the moment if your left or right biased in your political leanings it doesn't really matter a jot unless your a politician. They are all laughing at us from there big clubhouse in London. No party will implement big change and plan for the future say in 10 or 20yrs time because it wont benefit them at the present. All our political parties are so short sighted and only seem bothered in the here and now. I'm off for a Fursty Ferret.
Posted 1 year ago # -
We're 2 places lower than we used to be...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Careful now, this is in danger of becoming a reasoned fact-based debate with lots of mature commentary and general consensus.
Not the STW way, people!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Cant imagine why...
Posted 1 year ago # -
Shhh... they might appear.
Posted 1 year ago # -
chickenman - Member
Whilst I do agree with some of the Tory focus on the economy and their ideas of wealth creation, deregulation etcA bit more regulation of those wealth creating banks might have helped to not trash the economy. That said neither hue of party has regulated them properly.
Incidentally, I work in electricity where the heavily regulated distribution area has reduced prices, invested more and increased service levels, while the de-regulated supply area (the ones you buy your electricity from) appear to be acting as a cartel.
Posted 1 year ago # -
realises he is out numbered runs away
Actually i will bite but tomorrow I am busy now. Been a while since stoner kicked my arse on an economics thread and 
Posted 1 year ago # -
When you go to Europe you don't run into the vast numbers of people who simply don't give a **** about the community they ive in.
Obviously never been to the suburbs of Paris, or the wrong end of central Athens then! Very few places in the UK with a similar level of scariness, even when they're not currently having a riot.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Isn't this a bit like arguing which is the better of syphillis or gonorrhea?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I just did that political compass assessment - turns out I'm closest to Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and the Green Party! I wish the last government had controlled spending better and I'm broadly supportive of the coalition. I hate excess governance and traditional "we want to tell you how you should live your life" socialist behaviour but conversely I don't trust big business to work for the good of humanity as it's too obsessed with short-term shareholder goals. Note that one of the most successful financiers Warren Buffet is successful because he goes against the grain and works for the benefit of the company and its employees - and in the longterm the shareholders win too!
I don't believe such brief political terms or the democratic process reward brave selfless behaviour from politicians but I can't think of a better solution.
I hope that rising oil prices and overseas labour costs drive some growth in UK manufacturing so we have a more balanced economy and school kids can look forward to a wider variety of careers and hopefully more apprenticeships for those that want to develop a trade but aren't academically inclined or are sick of theoretical education.
Posted 1 year ago # -
chiefgrooveguru
Yeah I've just shockingly had the same experience. I have to say I've come to the conclusion that the politicians are no better than big business, in fact big buisness is more honest as it doesn't pretend to be trying to improve our lives and be working for us.
Posted 1 year ago # -
When you go to Europe you don't run into the vast numbers of people who simply don't give a **** about the community they live in
Well first I never ran to any off them in my 4 years in the UK. Second you should run Europe a bit more widely than just the slopes of switz ski resort...Posted 1 year ago # -
I pity the politicians. The truth is that most people in this country vote with their wallet - "who promises to give me / let me keep more money"? *
So a new lot get in and whatever their ideals, they're given 5 years to put everything right, to overcome decades of mismanagement. If they can't turn the whole ship around in that time, they're out on their collectives arses and the next lot are brought in to start the whole thing all over again.
If the Tories can be accused of lining the pockets of themselves and their mates, at least there's a certain honesty about it. The Labour party can never fulfil their expectations. As soon as they "improve" the lot of their core voters, they switch to being Tory. Hence, they can only stay in power by ensuring the UK is continually under-achieving. Tony Blair swung it by looking and sounding like a Tory and letting his subordinates fly the red flag in the areas where they'd vote for a monkey if it wore a red rosette.
* The exceptions?
1/ Greens. Some voters actually care more about the environment than the state of their personal finances. Of course, of course it's easier to be so caring if you are already reasonably well off.
2/ Nationalists. Those who have a patriotism which surpasses their individual desire for more wealth. Of course the parties offering this tend to be "middle ground" as they are, essentially, two parties fighting together until they achieve independence.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Am i right in thinking that in general when Labour have looked after the purse strings, the country has ended up penniless and then the Tories have had to come over all austere and sort things out?
If only it was so black and white. The previous labour Government followed tory economic policies...the same sort of policies the Tories continued to condone until the last economic crash and probably still condone in private today.
What labour did do is rack up debt in relation to public services, by promising the electorate improved services. The electorate wanted it, but didn't want to pay for it in tax increases. Large debts were racked up throughout the world in many different countries with many different flavours of Government in power.
You could look at the presidency of George W. Bush, certainly a right leaning gentlemen, but racked up the debt and ultimately it was the US where the financial trouble really started.
I bet the Chinese were shouting "we've got them by the b*lls!" when they bought a load of US debt.
The truth is that most people in this country vote with their wallet
Regardless of politicians or bankers, the responsibility comes down to joe public. We get the politicians we deserve, and we've got the World i'm sure many right thinking people would not be too proud to pass on to our Children.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Regardless of politicians or bankers, the responsibility comes down to joe public. We get the politicians we deserve, and we've got the World i'm sure many right thinking people would not be too proud to pass on to our Children.
Amen to that. We reach the point where we just cannot push problems to the next generation. Pollution, economy, social welfare we have reach the end of the journey. We can't sustain the world as it is right now, and we can't pay for the necessary services. I wouldn't want to be a father right nowPosted 1 year ago # -
The problem with democracy is that you have to persuade half wits to vote for you.
Posted 1 year ago # -
just to check - reducing the defecit has nothing to do with reducing national debt. All these cuts at the moment are about the defecit.
National defecit is the difference between govt spending and govt income (taxes).
National debt is how much the government owes.Posted 1 year ago # -
mudshark - Member
We're 2 places lower than we used to be...
good! - we're surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce.
Posted 1 year ago # -
bassspine - well obviously there is a link...
If you run a substantial deficit you will obviously be increasing your national debt.
Interesting and related article on the radio this morning discussing the American deficit and how at its current rate of increase will be 110% of GDP in a decade. It also eluded to the relative deficits (taking into account size of economy) in this country being very similar. Given all political parties in the US are to the right of even the tories here that rather debunks the stereotype of left right fiscal policy.
Posted 1 year ago # -
good! - we're surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce.
Erm....
Posted 1 year ago # -
convert, the distinction between deficit and debt is important when you're highlighting the structural deficit. This is that part of the deficit that doesn't get cancelled out by revenues from increases in GDP and is fundamentally the part of national expenditure that the current government are focussing on reducing.
As you imply you'd expect a surplus to erode a debt, a deficit to increase it. However, with a substantial structural element of the costs of running the country it's very hard (almost impossible) to get into surplus again so you rely upon favourable interest rates and inflation to fund the short fall over the longer term.
Posted 1 year ago # -
How lovely. Yet another thread about how the country is 'skint', full of
arguingdiscussion between people who generally aren't actually 'skint'....Posted 1 year ago # -
As opposed to another discussion about Cuts, when government spending has risen?
Posted 1 year ago # -
How lovely. Yet another thread about how the country is 'skint', full of
arguingdiscussion between people who generally aren't actually 'skint'..........and your point is?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Elfinsafety - Member
"good! - we're surrounded by rich people who can afford to buy things we produce"
Erm....
what's your point?
are you trying to suggest that we don't make things anymore? - cos you'd be dead wrong.
we're great at making expensive bits of specialist kit, if more people around the world can afford them then that's a good thing, isn't it? - i'll give you a clue: it is.
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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