• This topic has 43 replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by servo.
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  • Follow up to my dodgy witness insurance claim
  • servo
    Free Member

    I posted a thread about my insurance claim a few months back and got some good advice but I need to move to the next stage.

    http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tracing-dodgy-witness-for-insurance-claim

    Background summary is:

    Driver produced a ‘witness’ after the accident, who turned up after I had left the scene. Witness statement is totally made up as is driver’s.

    I have issues with the witness’ address, so I followed the advice on the thread and asked an enquiry agent to look into his address.

    Result is witness owns the property, but does not live there as he rents it out to tenants. The address is over 30 miles away from his last address on the electoral role which is very near the driver. This puts the driver and witness living near each other and a long way from the scene of the accident.

    Also, I have researched the witness on my own and found that although he is retired, he is connected to the driver by an intermediate company. I don’t want to go into too many details but it is very clear to me (and I think any reasonable person) that they know each other through work.

    My original solicitor gave up because of the witness statement. He won’t take the case back on even with the new evidence. I have also talked to another bike solicitor who said he would not take the risk.

    I am considering writing to the insurance company directly and pointing out the facts of the case.

    The first line of the witness’ statement is a lie. He does not live where he says he lives.

    The last line of both the driver and the witness’ statement says they don’t know each other.

    I am hoping that I can force the insurance company to behave honestly and look at the witness and driver’s statements. The last solicitor mentioned that they might make an offer in principle for me to go away.

    One friend said that I should tell them a figure that I will settle for so they can make a decision.

    It was an arm injury and required an operation to fix it.

    Small claims court only handles personal injury up to £1000.

    Can I get the insurance company to see sense and deal with me direct rather than the potential of an expensive legal claim in the future?

    edlong
    Free Member

    What you’re describing sounds like insurance fraud. So if your evidence is as solid as you seem to think, can’t you bypass civil remedy and report this directly to the police as such?

    wwaswas
    Full Member

    as above – I’d try and talk to someone in the police re: fraud etc and get an incident number to quote at the insurance company.

    Nobby
    Full Member

    This.

    I am considering writing to the insurance company directly and pointing out the facts of the case.

    NOT this.

    One friend said that I should tell them a figure that I will settle for so they can make a decision.

    I would also consider this.

    report this directly to the police as such?

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I’d suggest contacting the Insurance company directly with the information that you have managed to gather and suggest that they might want to have a word with their client and check their facts, otherwise you’ll have to contact the police and get them to do it on their behalf.

    IANAL, but would seem to me that this might well drop the other party right in it regarding their relationship / contract with their insurance company, which may in turn lead to the ins co refusing the claim on the basis that their client has lied to them as well. Which might then lead to you needing to pursue a civil claim or even involve the police anyway. Which just occurs to me, maybe the Ins Co might be interested in doing given they are the ones who are being defrauded as well, and maybe have the wherewithall to really screw the driver over.

    servo
    Free Member

    Thanks for the replies.

    The fraud aspect is a good one. There seem to be plenty of Insurance Company sponsored websites that encourage you to report insurance fraud. Works both ways.

    So making a report to police or insurance fraud agency is a potential stick to hit them with. Good to have something that they will hopefully not want to happen.

    I did think about what might happen to the driver if the insurance company get fed up with his actions. They may cancel his insurance that is true. But I did look up his policy documents and the insurance company said in that situation they would settle with the third party and may look to recover the costs from him!

    BigJohn
    Full Member

    There’s nothing stopping you making a claim against the driver in the County Court. If you make a full claim, stating all the names and addresses and highlighting all the lies the guy has made so far it will at least be a good bit of sport.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    I’d keep at it, does your home insurance not provide legal cover?

    Although I’d try and find out what ‘damages’ you might be entitled to first, you can’t claim punitive damages like in the US, so a few stiches on the elbow is unlikley to get much. You can claim for private physio and time off work but if you claim for time off work then you’r employer can, if it’s written in your contract, claim that money from you (i.e. you cant claim it twice). So no win no fee lawyers headline figures of £1000’s should be taken with a pinch of salt, the actual number you get personaly is detailed in “the green book” which I think you can find on google.

    crashtestmonkey
    Free Member

    Report to police as fraud, get reference number, quote reference number and the fact you’ve reported it police in correspondence to insurer, which will give you credibility.

    IANAL but I am a copper. Fraud is an offence of intent, it doesn’t have to be successful for the offence to be complete. And police hate frauds as they are a pain in the arse to investigate and usually cross force borders. Little is likely to come from the police report but it should make the insurers sit up and dig a bit deeper.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    And police hate frauds as they are a pain in the arse to investigate

    Although there are a few of us perverted ones that love a good fraud investigation – the culprits have invariably hung themselves somewhere in the paper trial, it’s just a question of finding where (and which in this case you appear to have already done), getting all the paperwork in order, and then enjoying the interviews (and the overnight jollies).

    andybrad
    Full Member

    Having had a similar thing in the past,

    I had My insurance refuse to agree with that i said.

    I had them offer no help at all.

    I Had the police offer no help at all.

    I had the other partys “mate” give a statement.

    I had the other party say things that were not true.

    The last dealings i had with my case officer at the insurance company at the time were ” You may as well just admit liability and get on with it, There is plenty of time to build up your no claims as you are young”

    At this point i decided to take both the insurance company and the third party to court. They settled.

    I feel your pain and hope you get it sorted. It took me a very long time.

    antigee
    Full Member

    the other parties insurance company will be looking for a simple denial of your claim or for an easy settlement

    this is how I’d go forward without a solicitor

    did your solicitor ever enter a detailed claim?
    if not would suggest you detail a claim – presume this will include
    repairs/replacement to bike / clothes / loss of earnings
    expected loss of earnings (planned op) / out of pocket expenses eg taxis to hospital – if you have receipts include copies, doctors referral letters/employer letters/state typical earnings if self employed-casual – make it easy for the insurance co’ to just settle
    remembering it is compensation for losses only that can be considered

    insurance co may just sign it off as easiest thing to do without even reading rest of info

    restate your version of events (don’t assume your solicitor ever did this)

    point out obvious inconsistencies in the version of events provided by their client and point out that it directly conflicts with your version of events and that you do not believe it to be truthful – provide google image or photos of scene/diagram if this helps

    state that you did not see their clients witness at the time of the accident

    next bit is tricky but suggest go for it
    state you do not believe the witness is independent to their client and that you have employed an enquiry agent to establish a relationship. (full stop) (include the cost in your claim if receipted) no need to detail the info

    Ask if they are able to settle now based on the information you have provided.

    the insurance company will either settle or pass the letter directly for comment back to their client who will either change or withdraw statements and then insurance co will settle or just say doesn’t want to comment and stands by original statements

    if insurance co say they then stand by clients statements and deny your claim then I’d go down the police route and try and get an incident number and then advise the insurance co that you think the witness statements are fraudulent and have passed it to the police to investigate – again they may just settle as they know you aren’t going away and that it possible you have a stronger case than their client

    remember all you are going to get is compensation for loss not confirmation the other party is a ****/bad driver/cyclist hating liar

    good luck

    servo
    Free Member

    This is all great stuff.

    I think antigee’s template is the way forward. I have been sent the whole file from the solicitor. I had a medical report done and it was all sent to the insurance company so they know the score.

    Even if they don’t offer to settle straight away, they will be probably give the driver grief which will be a bonus.

    I think the police report will be a good next step if it drags on.

    Hopefully won’t have to go to county court but it is an option.

    I feel quite a lot better about it now. Cheers!

    servo
    Free Member

    No go on any of the fronts it seems.

    Wrote to the driver’s insurance company and explained about the driver having a working relationship with the witness, the witness lying about his address and the fact that no one saw the witness at the scene. They basically said tough, our driver will stand by his statement.

    Reported to the Insurance Fraud Bureau which uses Crimestoppers to handle the calls. They are interested in fraud that costs them money so no response at all.

    Reported to the local police who told me I had to report it through the Action Fraud website. I did and got a crime number and it will be referred to the national fraud body but I think won’t get anywhere.

    Tried another solicitor and they said it is too much of a risk. I suppose it is not a simple personal injury case.

    So, if you have an accident, and happen to have no morals, get a friend to be a witness, make up a story between yourselves and the other side have no chance.

    hora
    Free Member

    One thing I will say – why go through all the hassle of getting a witness and both lying? It’d be saner just to admit/go through insurance.

    Are they of English origin? Loaded I know but where I come from its not unknown

    ScottChegg
    Free Member

    why go through all the hassle of getting a witness and both lying? It’d be saner just to admit/go through insurance.

    Not really. Lie and save the no claims bonus/excess/increased premiums.

    Look for a better solicitor. Not a ‘no win, no fee’ job, a real one.

    philjunior
    Free Member

    Are you approaching “no win no fee” solicitors?

    If so I would suggest approaching some proper solicitors, but there will then be a financial risk (which the no win no fee solicitors are not happy to take on) to you of course, unless you could get something like the cyclist’s defence fund onto the case.

    philjunior
    Free Member

    Oh – or represent yourself in a (civil) court case of course.

    emmodd
    Free Member

    Unless you have some kind of funding in place ie; legal expense insurance then you’re only likely to find a no win no fee solicitor prepared to take this on. You’re unlikely find anyone willing to take it on on any other basis.The big problem is that as the claimant the onus is on you to prove your claim, it’s not on the other party to disprove. With this in mind, you might struggle to find a solicitor willing to take on the case because the risk of not getting paid for the work in pursuing an unsuccessful claim is all theirs. Best of luck with the claim.

    welshfarmer
    Full Member

    This happened to me a couple of years ago. I wanted my insurance to fight it. They said they wouldn’t as I would probably lose. I had protected no claims in place so let them settle without prejudice to my record. Premium has been going down ever since so no loss to me. Just irks big time that someone can have the gall to effectively commit fraud that way.

    oliwb
    Free Member

    ^^^ had this…..twice. Only been involved in two accidents – both times I (stupidly?) told the truth and the other party lied and then mysteriously pulled an ‘independent’ witness out of thin air. Protected NCD so one ended up being settled on 75/25% basis (75% his fault, over took me whilst I was indicating and turning right), second claim is still outstanding 3 years on 🙁

    I’ve subsequently lost all faith in the justice or insurance systems. Next time I’ll be sorely tempted to just lie – seems like there is zero fall out from doing such.

    project
    Free Member

    You and yours radio 4 today good item about insurance freaud, and the types of people they target for rtc,s, basiclly comercial vehicles as we all have insurance

    servo
    Free Member

    Well there has been a development in my case. I wrote another letter in July to the driver’s insurance company. I pointed out that they weren’t behaving with integrity in not investigating the driver and that they should be taking seriously my claim that the driver has made up a witness. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.

    I copied the letter on email to an executive at the company and I got a reply the next day. I had a customer complaints specialist working on it. Within a week, they had apologised, and said they agreed with all my ‘evidence’ about the driver and the witness. They said that they are taking it seriously now and will investigate the driver and the witness.

    Reading between the lines, it seems that they don’t believe the driver now and hopefully I will be getting somewhere.

    The last contact from them was in July, and they did say the investigation would take some time.

    I think it’s time for another letter to keep them on their toes.

    Scapegoat
    Full Member

    Excellent result so far.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Good on you.

    We had similar battle with Churchill insurance 12 years ago – that need up with a begging apology from them, asking we do not take them to court, refunded premium and excess and increase in premium resulting and £50 m&s voucher… Keep at it.

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    The last contact from them was in July, and they did say the investigation would take some time.

    I think it’s time for another letter to keep them on their toes.

    I would imagine where insurance companies detect fraud or find someone has given a false statement, they are required to pass the case on to the Police to investigate, Thus your original claim could now be dependant on the outcome of a criminal investigation? who knows how shady this fella and his cohort(s) might be…

    Chase it up, see where it’s headed or if its stalled, if this has hit another impasse, I’d suggest a last resort is giving an account of the whole thing to the local press and seeing if they’re interested perhaps?

    Then just move on with your life, chasing these buggers seem to have already taken up a disproportionate amount of your time and energy…

    hammyuk
    Free Member

    Keep calling them – daily if need be.
    They don’t like it and “out of sight out of mind” is prevalent with them.

    thegeneralist
    Free Member

    Try the fraud option, but don’t hold out too much hope. I think the insurance fraud teams are there to stop companies having to pay out to fraudulent claimants. I doubt they will give damn about their clients lying to put the blame for a genuine accident on someone else.

    I dearly hope I’m wrong.

    servo
    Free Member

    I am not obsessed but it has been 59 days 2 hours and 39 minutes since the last contact. 🙂

    servo
    Free Member

    The postie just delivered a letter today (Sunday!) and the insurance company have ‘on relection’ decided to offer to settle my claim on a 50/50 basis.

    They want me to get in touch with my original solicitor so they can work out an amount between them.

    Last year my claim was refused due to the ‘independent witness’
    My solicitor tried for 50/50. Rejected again because of witness.
    Solicitor gives up with case.
    I research the driver and witness and find evidence they are bogus.
    Tell my solicitor who says he can’t do anything.
    Few months later I write with my evidence to insurance company. Not interested.
    Tried again and this time they take it seriously and look to investigate.
    Now they have reflected and want to offer 50/50.

    My solicitor is going to be surprised. They may get some money out of it.

    I think that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing 🙂
    The driver has made no claim and anyway I have third party insurance.

    scaredypants
    Full Member

    I’d ask them what they’re doing about the fraud and why they think you are 50% to blame.

    z1ppy
    Full Member

    Sounds like a result, you can but hope that by calling out the other drivers suspicious activity, his insurance company will take dim view of him & maybe even refuse to renew, as insurnace companies don’t like fraudsters. Which he will need to disclose when trying to get new insurance…. major result

    Junkyard
    Free Member

    its odd how they partially cave into you [ legitimately] but then do nothing about the fraud which is why we all pay more premiums
    I would want the full 100% tbh and an investigation of the liar and their “witness” on principle
    Glad you got a good result though and well done

    Superficial
    Free Member

    Love this sort of thing. Keep it up and good luck.

    I’m not sure what you are 50% liable for though? I feel like the driver (and his alleged mate) should have the book thrown at them for lying – I.e. pay you 100% compensation for the accident + interest + any legal / investigation fees + recompense for your time to investigate the matter personally.

    THEN go round and throw a brick through his window (Optional, but likely to be more satisfying than anything else that’s happened).

    crankboy
    Free Member

    Go see your solicitor. The insurance co are a business not a form of justice they are making an economic decision. If they are offering anything it is because they believe they will lose in court so work out your max claim value and any liability you may have for the accident. To go away now I would want at least 80 % of what I could realistically fight for in court.

    crankboy
    Free Member

    Also recheck you arrangement with your solicitor you should not be paying him a success fee of 20% when you did all the work he will get fixed costs off the insurance co anyway.

    devash
    Free Member

    Go see your solicitor. The insurance co are a business not a form of justice they are making an economic decision. If they are offering anything it is because they believe they will lose in court so work out your max claim value and any liability you may have for the accident. To go away now I would want at least 80 % of what I could realistically fight for in court.

    This. Them offering you 50% means they think they will lose in court on production of this evidence of fraud.

    Solicitor up, and hit them hard.

    enfht
    Free Member

    No offence but after all your time and efforts you should now hit them for 100+ percent for the additional distress. Consider changing solicitors if you can – your original one’s track record ain’t exactly great.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    .

    leegee
    Full Member

    You have their attention now. Offering you 50% is just their first offer and you never accept the first offer.

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