Hey y’all. I can’t find a fatbike frame that I actually want, so I’ve decided I’m going to build one. Problem is I have no idea. I’m 16 (for a frame of reference) and have no experience nor knowledge on welding nor even the angles that make up a frame. I’m determined and eager to learn however, and will make it happen. I’m trying to find someone (a framebuilder) who too has a genuine interest in this, and would like to see it happen, does anyone know anyone who would be interested in doing this as a project? I mean I would obviously pay for the stuff etc (: Thanks

How deep are your pockets?

Go search the internet – sourcing info and parts for bike building was MUCH harder before it existed.

I suggest you go trawl through the MTBR fat bike and framebuilder forums for ideas and info – but don’t ask an unresearched question like this on the framebuilder forum or you’ll get flamed :-).

Then look at what all the manufacturers are building (angles, dropout spacing, drivetrains etc). Also look at what the custom builders are doing. Is it different, and if so why?

Then sketch up your own ideas on Bikecad and get going!

Then either team up with someone, or learn some skills. Atomic Zombie for the chop hack approach, Ceeway for some proper new tubes.

Your problem is going to be finding a frame builder who will give their labour for free. There are frame builders about like Steven Shand (and me) who have experience with building fat bikes and cargo bikes and things like that, but we have our hands full with customers who actually want to give us money 😉

So if you can, find a course – I did at about your age, a local college course on bicycle framebuilding. You might not get that lucky, but a course in welding would be a start.

It might also be worth asking why you are looking for something that no one else has. There is now a wide range of fatbikes out there. What makes you think you have identified some sort of niche that no one else has spotted?

officerfriendly,

To give you a frame of reference, i am almost double your age and am heeding the advice given above by ben and mick, these are guys that have both build frames, one of whom seems to make a reasonable living out of it.

There are courses out there for learning how to build a bike, they are not cheep however, places like the bicycle academy do exist.

My first step is to learn to weld, i have made the decision i want to TIG (this is not the only way to stick tubes together for a bike frame but is the choice i have made) and am in the fortunate position that at my work we have a highly qualified welder who is willing to teach me the basics for beer and cake.

As i progress with welding i intend on having a play about with bike cad to get a frame design i am happy with, as per mick r i will be starting off by ripping off other people angles and angles on bikes i have an understanding of.

Once i know what I want to build I will then need to look into what tubes I want to use for it. I will have to learn how the different properties of material and thickness affect a frame and what is needed where and less important in others.
When i get to this point i will probably have a bunch of quite specific questions I need to ask and i hope that i will be able to approach some of the experianced frame builders for some help and advice without wasting their time.

Then it’ll be a simple case of build a jig, throw it all together and charge it down a hill somewhere and hope not to kill myself 😉

Where is motorman when you need him. Salsa Fargo I think it is that he had. Proper truck. I’ll see if I can find pics. No need to chop things up.

My bad it was a Yuba Mundo.

I’d recomend going to see Rob at really usefull bikes nr Yate…he’s primarily a cargo bike specialist but he’s known to build one offs as well….

if its a fat cargo bike i’d suggest a 135mm back end and use a nuvinvi 360 hub…. an original Pugsley would be good to use as a starting Point

a yuba mundo 4.0 could be tweaked with a offset rear end but it will be a very Heavy beast……

you could go for a smaller rear Wheel (like xtracycle) from a baby fatty ….better for carrying cargo low down

Isn’t the answer to this

What makes you think you have identified some sort of niche that no one else has spotted?

Simply this –

I can’t find a fatbike frame that I actually want, so I’ve decided I’m going to build one.

?

If no-one ever tried to make a bike that was just a bit different then riding would be boring.. It’s a huge task for an amateur framebuilder though. At 16 I mig-welded a windsurfer trolley.. that’s about it. So to want to braze up a cargo fat bike is brilliant. officerfriendly, PM me if you need any pointers with bikeCAD, clearances etc. I could think of easier things to start on but whatever fires you up is the best thing to aim for. The good thing about a bike like that is you can use long, almost straight stays, or 2 long seat stays into a twin top tube. I’d also take Mickr and Ben’s advice.

jameso –
Is the offer of assistance with bikeCAD universal? I may need to ask for some pointers when I get to using it.

but we have our hands full with customers who actually want to give us money

venal bastards!

What’s your school’s Design Technology Dept (or whatever it’s called these days) like? at your age I had some pretty good DT teachers who helped me with sandcasting and a bit of Oxy-Acetylene welding for projects

Having said that does it have to be Steel? or even metal?

Why not try BAMBOOOOOOOO! it’s the future I tells ya!

lets just throw this out there what makes you think you need a “framebuilder” for advice

There’s plenty of folks built stuff and LERANED THROUGH DOING the Wright brothers who do you think they asked ? Because someone has done something is it the right way of doing something?

venal bastards!

<gets offended>

<goes to look up “venal” and finds it’s not the same as “venereal”>

</gets offended>

😉

What’s your school’s Design Technology Dept (or whatever it’s called these days) like? at your age I had some pretty good DT teachers who helped me with sandcasting and a bit of Oxy-Acetylene welding for projects

Things have changed – they’ll probably be allowed to make a model of it out of papier maché, as long as they fill in all the forms and perform a risk assessment.

lets just throw this out there what makes you think you need a “framebuilder” for advice

This. I see a lot of work from a lot of framebuilders. A lot of it is very competently made. But 99% of it is conventional diamond frames like what everyone has been making for 100 years.

Fat cargo bikes have been done.Black Sheep have shown one at NAHMBS, and there are a couple more knocking around besides the Mundo pictured above.

It’s an interesting idea, although I do rather doubt it’s more than a micr-niche.

🙂

Rusty mac, yes, its pretty intuitive anyway.

Don’t discount other materials – I think what would count as my first “bike” project was a wooden unicycle (age 19 ish). Prior to that it was making rc car stuff (using dad’s lathe unsupervised by age 15, vacuum forming things with mum’s hoover and oven…..).

The second frame had a marine plywood main section.

My whole reason for building frames slightly more seriously was because I couldn’t buy what I wanted (a 29er with slack HA and short back end – which then became fashionable a few years later).

Where are you based officer? Hopefully you’ll revisit this post soon (as you have a fair few experienced people replying and taking you seriously).

And Ben – don’t despair too much – my son’s high school still has a functional brazing hearth 🙂

Rick Hunter is your man!

Blimmin heck – looks like another guy with some frame experience has surfaced 🙂

Hey! Thanks to everyone for replying, it’s really nice to see, and much appreciated, this is long, but I like to reply to everyone lol.

@Bregante I kinda wanted to build it with someone, hence that being the fun in it!

@Mick_r Must have been! I found this http://www.framebuilding.com/ which I’m guessing is the “ceeway” referenced and they have some amazing stuff! You know, I never knew that bikes were made with lugs (which are for the record really amazing!), as in I always thought you just hold the tubes together and weld them (silly I know) so this new discovery leads to new possiblities being opened. I mean in theory, just in theory here, I could just buy the the tubing (some good reynolds 953!), cut down (not easily I suppose) corresponding to a geometry plan, find the correct lugs required and through Oxy-Acetylene welding, weld them together and have me a frame? I asked around at a quite a few framebuilers in London (where I’m located fyi 🙂 and I got a quote of £2000. Like seriously people? Seriously? Though I’m sure it can’t be that simple, but nor can it be that difficult either!
That’s a great idea thank you, I’ll do that! I was trawling around a bit, came across some very fascinating full suspension fat bike creations! Still tempted to do that haha xD If I ever manage to find a chromoly full sus frame I probably will… Though I must have a look at custom built fatbike frames! There’s some gold out there in the interwebs… Asking questions, asking why is brilliant thinking! I’ll have to do some research and see if I can come up with a design, I think if I’m going to start from scratch, I might as well design something different, think outside the box, something seriously, seriously cool. Kinda like what Jeff Jones has done with his Spaceframe! I’m trying to find someone to team up with, but rather surprisingly (yes surprisingly ) I’ve had no luck! Maybe when I make some progress I’ll ask around again? Thanks though 🙂

@bencooper Hey ben, I think I remember you, making some next level funny comments on my bikepacking thread! I don’t mind paying (I mean I’d rather not obviously) but I’m more interested in finding someone to do it with as friend, who’s genuinely interested in doing it as opposed to just paying someone to do it. I want to have fun doing it with them! I mean that’s like half the point! I’ve no qualms with doing all the hard work either, if that’s somehow possible! I’ll have a look around for courses, that is a great idea, thank you 🙂

@Scotroutes Well I really want to build one up to make it exactly how I want it and because I think it’d be really fun, espcially desingning one from scratch. and no for the record, there’s only one Cargo Fatbike out there and that’s the Yuba Mundo, which as nice as it is, I ain’t diggin it 🙂

@Rusty Mac I never get how you guys on here all seem to know each other, quite personally as well it seems! Tbh honest I doubt there’s a need for a full bike building course, only a framebuilding/welding one which probably covers an entirely different thing (making frames as opposed to putting bike parts together) but yeah, the bicycle academy looks fantastic! I got pointed in there direction by a few framebuilders as well, but the problem is that they’re in Somerset and I’m in London. You are in a very fortunate position there! I wish I knew someone like that. I once heard that that best thing you can do in your life is to network, because it will literally take you places. Beer and cake is pretty cool haha, he must like you! That’s kinda what I was looking for lol. I’m curious as to why you’ve chosen TIG welding? Though if you can’t be bothered to explain, I’ll just google 🙂 I’m sure the answers out there somewhere!
In terms of tubing, what I was going to do was used extremely big oversized tubing (as in Reynolds 953) for the front triangle of the frame, then use smaller but thicker tubes for the chainstays? I mean I don’t see how that can go wrong but I should still probably do some research! Sounds like a good plan though, I wish you the best of luck! What are you thinking of building? I hope it’s a fatbike xD

@Devss The Yuba Mundo’s nice, but for that much as in (£500) for the frameset, surely it’s possible to build a far better, crazier one for less?!

@TH1000 Thanks, I’ll see if I can find his contact details (: The pugsley was actually my original choice! I was just going to buy one of those and put front and rear Surly Nice racks on it, but it adds up to almost £700 in which I figured there’s not really any point paying that much. By that I mean £500 for the frameset and £100 per rack. To be honest I wasn’t really intending to carry that much Cargo, just a light bikepacking rig, pretty much the Pugsley with front and rear Surly racks. Tell you though, if I manage to find a cheap used Pugs frame, I don’t think I could resist!

@Jameso Thank you! I knew what he was saying was wrong on some fundamental level, but I wasn’t really quite sure how lol, til you said that! Welding at 16 is still quite something, I haven’t had a go at that yet tbh 😉 Exactly! I completely agree, if it’s something that you really really want, it will give you that motivation that you need to drive you onwards. I like you! And thank you for that offer, that’s very kind and I most definetely will take you up on it at some point!

@Cookea, that’s a great idea thanks, I’ll ask!

@Mickmcd I just think it would be a heck of a lot easier, and more fun might I add to have someone to do it with and show me the ropes 🙂 Though some framebuilders don’t seem to be too nice. I asked David Yates if he would build the frame up previously (fully paid for) and he refused saying he wasn’t interested. Though I’m probably being oversensitive lol, it his right to an opinion if he’s not interested lol. He (Debbie someone) refused to tell me why though..What’s ridiculous though is when some of them try and charge me £2000 just for them to show me how to do it. I mean that’s just something else..

@bencooper I never actually noticed how frames had always been built, as in with lugs. It’s pretty ingenius, and doesn’t seem that difficult to do at all. I mean I thought it was welding two metal tubes straight together, which is quite a bit more difficult I guess lol

@BigDummy that cargo bike looks pretty dang awesome. Most days I wish I was in the USA, it’s where everything bike related seems to be happening (as in Fatbike and Surly lol) and you guys have some of the most amazing natural landscape that goes on for years on end….And hey I think I remember you, you’re the guy who’s obsessed with his big dummy right? Like literally in love with it? xD

@mick_r How could I not revisit this thread?! Just had a lot going on lately 🙂 I’m in London and that’s pretty ironic how you built a 29er just before they started coming in! I still remember when the guys at my Spesh shop started wearing those I switched to a 29er shirts…

@Raouligan Is this a man I should get in contact with? Just so I understand what you’re saying lol? I’ll scope this fella out…

Just thought I’d add, just got given a Mukluk yesterday by a friend, and she rides beautifully! Just not with any cargo, guess I’ll have to make do with my ECR 😉

Even making a lugged frame won’t be simple!

Lugged frames are usually road bikes too, so really you would be looking at “welding tubes together”.

Forget all the lugs and fancy stuff.

You want to be working with the plain gauge Columbus Cro-Mo on the Ceeway site that is less than £15 for a 1.5m length.

http://www.framebuilding.com/Spare%20Tubes.htm
http://www.framebuilding.com/Gara.htm

Cut the tubes then join them using brass fillets rather than “welding” /trying to find lugs the correct size and angle. (Google fillet brazing)

Maybe even just start with a regular steel donor frame and cut off the back end?

Sorry I’m wrong end of the country to help.

what mick says re:tubes .

and remember, about 70% of the strength comes from the slip-braze (correct term?) rather than the fillet on top so the closer the mitres fit together the stronger it will be.

You have access to an oxyacetylene torch yes?

you’re the guy who’s obsessed with his big dummy right? Like literally in love with it? xD

LOLZ. It’s certainly been my favourite thing ever for about half a decade.

😉

Lugs aren’t actually easier – you still need to have decent mitres to the tubes. The joint strength doesn’t come from the lug alone. With lugs you’re also restricted to the sizes and angles that you can buy, which is pretty limiting.

@Mick_r Wow fillet brazing looks even more amazing! So you don’t even have to weld the metal? Just melt the filler? That’s pretty awesome. Good idea to just start with the standard tubing. Starting off with a standard steel frame and widening it seems like the best option to start with. Thanks Mick and no worries about that, the thought counts 🙂 I’ve been looking at full suspension frames recentely and I’ve decided if that you’re gonna go, you might as well go all the way. And holy shit do they look like fun.

@Retrodirect, I’m not sure what slip brazes are! I’m actually researching it, and it really is pretty amazing! http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/9-00/fundamentals.html And no! I haven’t done anything like this before lol 🙂

@bencooper Well they were something that made this all seem so much easier in my mind, despite the limiting angles, but fillet brazing opens up so many more possibilities!

fillet brazing opens up so many more possibilities

It does, that’s why I fillet braze almost everything I build. However the downside is it takes more practice to get good at it. Lugs are, once you do the mitering, relatively easy to braze together, but fillet brazing needs more fine control of the temperature.

http://www.thebicycleacademy.org/

fillet brazing opens up so many more possibilities

yeah they do an electric version which is loads better 😉 than burning stuff till it melts

Have a look for the dave yates framebuilding course, learn to fillet braze a frame in a week. Downsides, I don’t know if a fat bike would be covered, I’m guessing if he’s not built one before then the extra time required figuring things out might make it impractical on a formal course, and there’s a max length his workshop can cope with (no tandems) which might rule out a cargo bike.

Get on a frame building course at the bicycle academy. If you get on the week with ted James (one week a month) he will be able to help you realise your frame. Might be a bit ambitious for the week but worth enquiring. Based in froome.

get on a welding course. Our local place does a 2 day intro course. for a couple of hundred quid.

Welding is quite easy to learn the basics, it’s getting good that takes practice.

Was going to suggest grabbing a Yuba frame then having it at it with the torch

Welding is great.

Brazing is probably safer in terms of tolerance to beginner technique, everything happening a bit slower easier to inspect if it is good / bad.

In view of his age, I’d suggest officer (as he is London based) does a load of research and then writes a nice letter to the Engineering Director at Brompton asking for 2 weeks of work experience – but you only get one chance so please keep the letter brief and factual – plus get someone older to proof read / edit it 🙂

Also look on the bespoked show website. Research all the London based builders from all the various shows (2012/13/14 etc) and then write nice letters asking if you can come in foc on a Saturday to sweep up / clean up cut tube ends / make tea etc.

If you are serious about making a frame then speak to The Bicycle Academy. It will be expensive but at least you will get a usable frame made as quickly and easily as possible.

Or you can mess about for a long time,and spending money, making a lot of mistakes and not really getting what you want.

Plenty of people have lots of ideas, some with the skills, tools and time…
http://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=39840&pagenum=1

but its only really The Bicycle Academy that can help you get what you want.

but its only really The Bicycle Academy that can help you get what you want.

what complete and utter tosh ,what do you think we all did before the bicycle academy came along

this renaissance handmade bollocks that these guys are more gifted and no one else but them can do it is getting beyond a **** joke, anyone can learn basic engineering skills which is what you need to put even a decent frame together ,none of these specialists from my generation was any different

What Mike said. I’m not knocking what the BA people do, but I am self-taught as are many other frame builders.

Tell you what: convince me it’s an interesting idea, pay for materials, and I’ll stick the frame together for you.