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  • Field of Remembrance – Tower of London
  • mcmoonter
    Free Member

    I’m seldom in London these days but was down over the weekend and made a point of visiting the Field of Remembrance at the Tower of London.

    There can be few arts projects that have resonated as universally.

    rewski
    Free Member

    I’m off there with the family later.

    cchris2lou
    Full Member

    going tomorrow .

    looks amazing .

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    titusrider
    Free Member

    I was going to say, “go and buy one, we have ordered 2”

    but they are all sold
    https://poppies.hrp.org.uk/buy-a-poppy/

    Rubber_Buccaneer
    Full Member

    I was amazed at the scale. Then you think about what it represents…

    stumpy01
    Full Member

    Going to my parents in a couple of weekends and thinking of popping off during the day to go and have a look.
    Also want to go and pay the Bomber Command memorial a visit.

    Gowrie
    Free Member

    It gets taken down after the 11th, I believe.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    Stunning.

    I always try and make time to go to Westminster Abbey as well, which always feels like a very personal place of remembrance.

    stumpy01
    Full Member

    Gowrie – Member
    It gets taken down after the 11th, I believe.

    Oooh, didn’t realise it was that soon. I’ll be there on Fri 7th, probably go and see it on the 8th. I better make sure I get there!

    nuke
    Full Member

    There can be few arts projects that have resonated as universally.

    Agreed 🙂

    :edited: link removed…no need for negatives on thread

    Dobbo
    Full Member

    How much did the poppies sell for out of interest?

    I bet it wont be long before they start appearing on Ebay at an inflated price.

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    @Dobbo I think they are for sale at £25 each.

    We have been a few times and it’s really stunning. I am glad the idiot who wrote negative stuff in the Guardian (as linked to above) has had a good dressing down, was even mentioned in PMQ’s this week.

    We have had another thread or two on it. I first saw them in the summer.

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    £25 plus p&p. We’ve ordered one for each set of grandparents. Cue conversation with my mother the other week trying to convince her not to buy one herself.

    On a much smaller scale, I recommend the National Memorial Arboretum at Alrewas. Went for the first time on Tuesday, very nice place, all the small memorials scattered about, then the bigger set pieces and the main wall.

    I’ll vote for any party that can go a five year term without having to add any more names to the wall.

    steve-g
    Free Member

    Apparently of that £25, only £4.50 goes to charity. The remaining £20.50 + p&p is costs

    ormondroyd
    Free Member

    I am glad the idiot who wrote negative stuff in the Guardian (as linked to above) has had a good dressing down, was even mentioned in PMQ’s this week.

    It’s very important that dissenting views are crushed. Especially on this subject. No irony there at all

    bearGrease
    Full Member

    There can be few arts projects that have resonated as universally.

    Is it art? Or the 21C equivalent of the Cenotaph?

    I always felt that the fact that the government of the time wouldn’t allow Steve McQueen’s Queen and Country to end up on Royal Mail stamps a huge missed opportunity to put remembrance into a 21C context somewhat telling of the ways of politicians (here).

    But what do I know? I am a pure philistine.

    skydragon
    Free Member

    Respect.

    Going down in a few weeks to see them and have ordered a poppy online.

    I intend to put the poppy on my great-grandfather’s grave in 2 years time, on the 100th anniversary of his death.

    If you are interested in WW1 and have a spare few minutes, you might find this interesting

    Over the past few years I’ve done some research on my Great Grandfather, David Carlyle Taylor who died fighting in France in WW1. Following the research I then visited his grave in France along with my mum and went to the actual location where he finally died. His story is probably not dissimilar to hundreds of thousands of others, but some of the story is interesting (unique?) in terms of what I managed to find out and see.

    My Grandfather had asked me before he died to visit his Dad’s grave in France, so years later with that goal in mind, I visited the Public RecordsOffice in Kew and from looking at some of his service records and his units war diary, I managed to piece the following together. David was born in Carlisle, Cumbria in 1883 and after a spell working in one of the local cotton mills and living at 24 Bridge Terrace in Denton Holme, Carlisle, he joined the army as a soldier in 1901, well before the Great War. It appears he may have served in Ireland during the early 1900’s and met his wife Nancy there, but there is no way of knowing for sure. He joined The Royal Field Artillery (service number 14213) and at the outbreak of war was 32 years of age. Unfortunately, many service records from WW1 were destroyed during the blitz of London in WW2, so it’s not possible to trace David’s complete service record in WW1. However we have a clipping from the Cumberland News, where his brother gives a report on David’s travels and exploits and notes some of the battles he had taken part in, in France. He comments that David had taken part in fighting near Arras in France where ‘His unit’s artillery guns had been fired continuously for 4 days solid without a break’. What we do know for sure from his records, is that by the late summer of 1916, after serving for a full three years in France, David was serving with The Royal Field Artllery as a Bombadier. He was in the 35th brigade, 25th Battery of the RFA. 25th Battery was an artillery unit consisting of 3 or 4 horse drawn gun carriages, a train of ammunition limbers, tradesmen, blacksmith, gunners and officers necessary to operate the battery and keep horses, men and guns in working order. The battery worked alongside several other batteries, thus forming a brigade unit. The main purpose of the RFA units was to serve as a cover for infantry in battle. In essence they would lay down sustained artillery fire on a target, village or trench system, so that infantry could then advance on the position, minutes after the barrage had stopped.

    By September 1916 the war had been a slow stalemate of battle for both sides for several years. It was decided that a major offensive would be carried out by the British Army on September 15th 1916, along a long stretch of the British lines near Albert in France. As well as being a huge advance, this was to be the first day in history that armoured tanks were ever to be used in battle. David’s battery was ordered to advance and wait to the south of a small villlage called Longueval. This area had a horrific reputation as next to the village is Deville woods, where in July that summer, seven thousand South African commonwealth troops entered the woods and were ordered to hold ‘at all costs’. After only one week’s fighting The commanding officer marched out of the wood to the pipes of the Black Watch leading two officers (both of whom were wounded) and just 140 other ranks remaining, they being the entire remnant of the South African Brigade, with over six thousand troops lost. My Mum and I visited the South African monument at Deville wood where ther is a huge bronze frieze depecting the march out of the woods and where you can walk around Deville woods which have been preserved as a living memorial to those who died. A very moving experience. I can only imagine that by September, the area was a wasteland of bodies, shell craters and tree stumps and must have been Hell on Earth.

    On the evening of 14th Sept the battery was in position and resting to the south of Longueval. Near the men on the road to Flers, armoured tanks had been lined up by the roadside and were due to be deployed for the very first time in history. On the next day, David’s battery were due to advance to a position just to the north of Deville wood and the village of Longueval and start an artillery barrage which would then provide some cover for the thousands of infantry who would advance accross the open ground in an effort to take the village of Flers a few miles to the north and the surrounding trench systems.

    The Battery’s war diary for15th Sept reads; 25th Battery began to advance about 08.00 but were held up South of Longueval by order of The Officer Commanding 35th Brigade, who had gone forward to reconoitre the positions, seeing very heavy barrage on the selected position (T7a31) (Note – This is the map reference of the position where the guns were due to move to and start their artillery barrage) At 11.00 25th Battery (David’s unit) received orders to contimue the advance, the Battery eventually arriving in action about 12 noon. The Ground they traversed was a mess of intersecting shell craters and the guns were only dragged into position with the greatest difficulty and under still considerable fire. During this action the Battery suffered numerous casualties of men and horses and Lt. Benningfield was wounded. The 12th and 58th batteries (The other batteries in David’s brigade) followed and came into action on each side of 25th at about 3/4 hour interval. The 31st battery (A heavy howitzer battery in David’s brigade) came into action soon afterwards under a bank about S12 b65 (map reference) All Batteries suffered casualties both from shelling in the Longueval-Flers road and also in the valley itself. Battery commenders were soon able to engage several excellent targets including batteries and infantry in the open. Fire was observed from switch trench T1d12.

    David was wounded that day and died the next day of ‘wounds’. He is buried in Grove Town cemetry, Meaulte, France. I managed to get a copy of a WW1 trench map from Sept 1916 and by using the grid references and a modern map, pinpoint the exact positions described. Visiting the field in France with my mum, the area described in the war diary is very small. The road from Longueval to Flers is only a mile long and the bank described in the war diary is still there to this day. It is possible to see where the three gun batteries were positioned at ‘on the selected position (T7a31)’ and also where the heavy howitzer battery was positioned by the earth bank. The field is now a farmers field full of wheat and other crops. We visited on a lovely summers day. With the sun beating down I re-traced on foot the route the battery would have taken, out of the village on the Flers road, alongside Deville wood and then over the field to a shallow valley where David’s battery was tasked to deploy. The walk is only 400 yards or so, yet it took over an hour that day. Kicking the sandy soil, I saw the surface was littered with debris including dozens of small lead shrapnel balls scattered around, perhaps some of them left over from that day’s fighting. Later, talking with my mum we tried to imagine what it must have been like that day. With horses dead and dying and the ground in the rough state it was, the guns would have been disassembled then dragged by hand and using rope, block and tackle to cover the distance and then re-assembled for firing, all whilst under heavy fire from both troops and enemy artillery. Did he suffer his fate on the way accross the field or did he live until later in the day?

    The next day I bought a book in a local bookstore in Albert and by a wierd co-incidence it had the following text which partially answered our question. — A Sergeant Carmichael (from an infantry unit fighting that day) lay wounded by a rifle shot to his leg on the morning of Sept 15th 1916. He had sought shelter under the same earthen bank described in David’s unit’s war diary at S12 b65 (map reference) (called Rideau des Filoires by the locals) next to the Flers road and witnessed that morning’s events unfold before him. This is an extract from his personal diary that day. —- And now the stage was set for as thrilling a sight as I ever witnessed in the war. On the crest of the ridge appeared a team of cantering horses, dragging the first gun, followed at regular intervals by the others. the enemy was now fully alive as to what was going on and redoubled it’s shelling. Still the leading gun drew rapidly nearer, seeming to be miraculously immune. But it was on the crossing of the trench that the Boche had concentrated his barrage of grey-bursting H.E. mixed with shrapnel. When they came to where the roadmending had finished the horses were put to a gallop and the gun and limber bumped and tossed over the shell holes. Once or twice it appeared as if the force of the explosion had blown the whole lot over, but by some miracle the gun wheeled round beside us in the shelter of the bank – that is shelter from H.E. not from shrapnel. The other guns were not so fortunate. One had it’s limber hit, but somehow the gun was brought on. The four pieces were pushed round, the limbers unloaded of their shells and the horses spurred on for a hell for leather gallop back through the barrage up the road to Longueval. As one of the teams was just starting off, a shrapnel burst a few feet overhead. The front four horses fell and the remaining driver reeled in his sadle and came tumbling to the ground. To our suprise he scrambled to his feet, unhitched his two horses, remounted and went tearing off towards safety. Then the ammunition limbers began to arrive with their loads of shells. they suffered more than the guns had done. One team was knocked completely out of action at that fateful corner and the wreckage had to be rounded by those following. But wonderfully the guns were supplied with their stacks of shells and the empty limbers were off again, bouncing about like made things, with artillery men clinging like limpets to their precarious perches….Later on in the war I have seen field artillery going into action in the open and iin much greater numbers,…but never have I been so thrilled as I was on that memorable day in front of Deville wood. —

    natrix
    Free Member

    Not too sure which Guardian article is being referred to, but personally I agreed with the one that I read, especially the summary:

    The first world war was not noble. War is not noble. A meaningful mass memorial to this horror would not be dignified or pretty. It would be gory, vile and terrible to see. The moat of the Tower should be filled with barbed wire and bones. That would mean something.

    Pretty sure that my grandad who served in WWI would have agreed as well…………

    DrJ
    Full Member

    + some – it’s very moving.

    jools182
    Free Member

    I was down there last weekend

    I managed to find a quietish spot away from the crowds when they were reading the names out and I got a lump in my throat

    Very moving away from all the camera flashes

    Does anybody know if they are reading out a complete list of the fallen over each day it’s there?

    Ro5ey
    Free Member

    I run past ToL some lunchtimes, have done so for years

    I have never, ever, seen so many people down there as there were today!

    In fact all along Embankment and even the normally quiet part between ToL and the Wobbly bridge was rammed.

    Saw an Air Cadet selling Poppies from those blue cardboard trays…She was mobbed !!

    LOADS, in fact most, were wearing poppies…. and clearly peoples of all nationalities wearing them.

    Fantastic

    Going to get down there ealry tomorrow with the dust bin lids

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    Seems that there is a sizeable minority in this country that seems to believe Remembrance Day is a celebration of war/victory, when it is, I always thought pretty obviously, a memorial to tbe courage and suffering of the appalling numbers of people killed in war.

    From what I have seen, tbe scale of tbe poppies at ToL reflects this very effectively.

    wrecker
    Free Member

    A meaningful mass memorial to this horror would not be dignified or pretty.

    It’s not “A meaningful mass memorial to this horror”, it’s a meaningful mass memorial to those who died, hence “we will remember them”. Obviously the Guardian will twist the facts and make it fit whatever their viewpoint is today.

    I always thought pretty obviously, a memorial to tbe courage and suffering of the appalling numbers of people killed in war.

    This is how I see it too. And I regard it as a memorial to all those who lost their lives, not just the British ones.

    tonyplym
    Free Member

    Wonder if, in 2018 to mark the 100th Armistice, they could do the same but with white poppies . . . .

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    War on that scale should never be forgotten… to prevent it being repeated.

    The fact that the Monarchy has presided over the armed forces without vetoing invasions such as Iraq and Afghanistan shows little has been learned.

    Strange that the Queen, as ruler of the commonwealth, presides over the majority of the worlds tax havens, yet charities have to provide for the injured and the families of the dead.

    Who profits from all these wars?

    jambalaya
    Free Member

    Does anybody know if they are reading out a complete list of the fallen over each day it’s there?


    @jools
    , I think they read names each evening. i recall that’s what we where told when we first saw it in the summer

    It’s very important that dissenting views are crushed. Especially on this subject. No irony there at all

    @ormon – the writer was just trying to be controversial.

    Poppies have always been used as powerful symbols of the loss. They grow naturally on disturbed ground and their striking red colour reminds us of the blood that was spilt. We don’t need bones and more literal representations, our imaginations are much more powerful and this poppies are much more respectful.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    Why is the Opium Poppy Yield in Afghanistan at an all time high since allied invasion?

    CountZero
    Full Member

    jivehoneyjive – Member
    War on that scale should never be forgotten… to prevent it being repeated.

    The fact that the Monarchy has presided over the armed forces without vetoing invasions such as Iraq and Afghanistan shows little has been learned.

    Strange that the Queen, as ruler of the commonwealth, presides over the majority of the worlds tax havens, yet charities have to provide for the injured and the families of the dead.

    Who profits from all these wars?
    🙄
    She doesn’t ‘preside’ over the majority of the world’s tax havens, she’s head of the Commonwealth, not its ‘ruler’.
    The heads of state of those countries, mostly presidents, preside over them.
    And she has no power of veto over any decision to go to war, the government of the day makes that decision.
    As for who profits?
    You’re so smart, why don’t you tell us, you seem to be permanently searching Google for stuff to support whatever loony ideas you happen to be obsessing about on any given day.
    You really ought to get out more.

    jivehoneyjive
    Free Member

    She doesn’t ‘preside’ over the majority of the world’s tax havens, she’s head of the Commonwealth, not its ‘ruler’.
    The heads of state of those countries, mostly presidents, preside over them.
    And she has no power of veto over any decision to go to war, the government of the day makes that decision.
    As for who profits?
    You’re so smart, why don’t you tell us, you seem to be permanently searching Google for stuff to support whatever loony ideas you happen to be obsessing about on any given day.
    You really ought to get out more.

    Calm yerself, I’m a relaxed and happy person.

    It’s not my fault I kick ass, I was just born that way.

    Tell you what, rather than ranting, why don’t you take a little time and educate yourself?

    stumpyjon
    Full Member

    Also saw them at the weekend, kept thinking what the moat would be like with with bodies rather than poppies. A very sobering thought. We bought one of the poppies when they first became available. All quite an impressive thing they’ve done.

    I’d rather we were doing this in four years time though to remember the end of the war and consider the awful cost, recognising the anniversary of start doesn’t quite feel right.

    rewski
    Free Member

    Very very busy today, take care and take your time if you’re going down, especially with young ones. Patience will be rewarded, it’s a moving spectacle.

    CaptainFlashheart
    Free Member

    A very sobering thought

    For me, that’s a part of the power. Everyone takes their own thoughts of remembrance in whatever way they feel they should. That’s powerful.

    rewski
    Free Member

    ^ this, and that so many people are drawn to witness it. Incredible.

    El-bent
    Free Member

    Seems that there is a sizeable minority in this country that seems to believe Remembrance Day is a celebration of war/victory, when it is, I always thought pretty obviously, a memorial to tbe courage and suffering of the appalling numbers of people killed in war.

    While remembrance day is a memorial, I find it offensive that we allow politicians to attend. It is merely a token effort from them to look solemn and humble, when tomorrow they will lead us into another conflict in “the nations interests.”

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    I was there today. As you stop and dwell how every seemingly insignificant poppy represents a lost life it really does hammer home the stupidity and madness of war. Specially you think that most were at the prime of their lives and with everything to live for.

    I found the playing of the Last Post at sunset and the hushed crowds very moving. Almost a hundred years on and they have not been forgotten.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    Calm yerself, I’m a relaxed and happy person.

    It’s not my fault I kick ass, I was just born that way.

    Tell you what, rather than ranting, why don’t you take a little time and educate yourself?
    About what, pray tell?
    You’re the one who posts up all sorts of spurious garbage gleaned from the Internet, yet when challenged, tell the challenger to do their own research.
    Why should I educate myself about stuff I know to be conspiracist bullshit?

    mrmoofo
    Full Member

    It’s a fantastic memorial to those you were sacrificed for their country . Whilst I have really strong feels about the pointlessness of WW1 …
    But hoping to go up thursday

    CountZero
    Full Member

    I carry my own item of rememberance pretty much every day:

    [/url] image by CountZero1, on Flickr[/img]

    His grave is shared with my Great-grandparents.

    crankboy
    Free Member

    I think it is visually stunning and for me moving but I am with the idiot in the Guardian about this . It certainly is specifically not a memorial to all the dead of ” The Great War ” one poppy for every British causality ignoring the Allies and German and civilian losses.
    “Dulce et Decorum est ” and the Dix’s worm skull perhaps carry more visceral and real weight. I fear we are going to see a lot of politics glossing over reality in the coming year.

    ernie_lynch
    Free Member

    It certainly is specifically not a memorial to all the dead of ” The Great War “

    Which presumably is precisely why it isn’t being described as a memorial to all the dead of ” The Great War “.

    It couldn’t possibly be made any clearer that each poppy represents a British military fatality during the WW1.

    http://poppies.hrp.org.uk/about-the-installation

    Leaving it to ‘the Allies and Germans’ to remember their own war dead in their own way sounds perfectly reasonable.

    Although obviously not to those who look for any opportunity to sneer at such events.

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