I could ask this on joggersworld but interval-based training seems more accepted here!

Has anyone managed a marathon at a reasonable pace on lots of intervals and very few long runs?

I ran a 35:30 10k at the weekend and my wife said ‘you should do a marathon’. OK, I said. Then started thinking about it.

I’d like to do London in 2013 and I’d like to qualify for a ‘good for age’ place by running a sub-3:10 race before July. Holidays etc mean that the only possible option for me to qualify is in Manchester in 2.5 weeks.

I ran 3:14 a few years ago but I’m much fitter now in terms of 10k pace. I’m running about 20 miles a week including lots of painful intervals. My longest run in the last few weeks has been a 16-miler and that was ok. I’m tempted to do a 3 hour run next weekend with some race pace thrown in before making a final decision.

Can anyone tell me if I’m being stupid?

Give it a go and find out, what have you got to lose?

I did my fastest ever 100 miles on the bike after doing nothing but interval training and a few longer rides, none of which were over 60 miles.

You may be able to. A marathon is 10 miles further than your current furthest run, or over one third again. That’s a lot.

Your problems may come in chasing a time. You are much better off running Manchester on how you feel rather than trying to play catch up if you fall slightly behind schedule. If your Manchester time is below 3:10, great you have a London Good for Age entry. If not, you can still try to enter London through the ballot. At just over 3 hours you are still an hour behind the winners. Sobering isn’t it.

You’ll be fine. Go for a half marathon training run this weekend doing negative splits, taking you in the final 3 miles to a pace 10% faster than you’d need to do for your marathon target.

You should nail 3 hours with a 35m30s 10km (well done by the way, that’s rapid). Put that time in the Macmillan calculator and it spits out 2h46m 🙂

However, in my experience (6 marathons) there is NO substitute for long runs. When i’ve shied away from running long i’ve always done terribly and hurt like hell.

You can run a fast marathon on three runs a week in training if two of them are intervals and one is long and hard. Ideally each session needs to be done hard enough to need 36 hrs to recover from.

Yes, the lack of long runs will kill you, you need to train the body to store glycogen until later in the race so you will need to do a couple of big runs I think.

My dad was a 35min 10k runner and he blew up 20 miles into his marathon and limped home the last 6 miles in an hour. lack of long runs…

I had been thinking that I could the 3 peaks on a combination of long bike rides and hill intervals but after 10 miles in the fells my legs were runied and I’ve pulled out for this year…

I’d say so.

I do mostly sprints and intervals, and my one long run will be whatever I feel like from 10 miles to 15 (longest so far) I’m pretty sure I could do a marthon

At just over 3 hours you are still an hour behind the winners. Sobering isn’t it.

Frightening (and why i said ‘reasonable’)!

I vaguely know Andi Jones who’s aiming for 2:12 at London and his training is astonishing. http://www.runnerslife.co.uk/andi-jones/profile

Thanks for the encouragement! The McMillan 2:46 assumes equivalent training, which is where I have the problem…

I’m thinking about a negative split 20-22 at the weekend, and I’m not reading anything which says I’m being an idiot so far. I think I might give it a bash.

thanks.

More encouragement/ stories of horrific injuries are welcome.

Teaboy, I need a rest just reading that!!!

I do at most maybe 40 miles a week.

29 minute 10km is amazing!!

Mr Boy, or can I call you tea?

No specific horror injury stories but as a 40 something club runner at 38 minute 10k runner my tale above was based on experience. Some years ago I was chasing 2 hrs 59 at the London Marathon. They had at the time Runners World pacemakers who were quite visible running with banners ( they may still do it). At ten miles I had fallen about 2 minutes behind the 3 hour pacemakers, mainly due to the volume of runners. I resolved to catch them by 15 miles, which I did but it had been such ane effort that I promptly blew up and finished in 3:20 compared to my PB of 3:10.

Hence the advice to run as you feel.

Go for it and let us know how you get on at Manchester.

Thanks Angus – I’d glossed over it but that’s good advice – I can’t quite get my head past the idea that 7:10 per mile feels incredibly slow and I’ll be wanting to push on, so I’d be using the 3:10 target to try to slow myself down early on.

If I do a long run at the weekend I’m sure that’ll put paid to that idea though…

Emsz – he combines 100+ miles per week with a full-time teaching job and a young family. That’s proper dedication.

Your 40 miles a week is good going. I don’t have time to fit in more training, but I seem to be moving in the right direction. One day I’ll do it properly!

djglover – there’s nowhere to hide in the 3Ps. It’s one of those races that you need some dedicated training for. I tried it once and the cramp at the top of Whernside was one of the most painful things I’ve ever felt! I have unfinished business with that race.

Given the details, then “yes” go for it. 35:30 is very respectable. There have been a few papers on people running fast times on just intervals, so it definitely can be done, in fact I’m tempted to try it next year.

Google “Yasso 800’s”, this is a session that might be interesting to do now as a baseline and then come back to later on.

Hi Teaboy

I’m a vet of 9 Londons first 3.29 & best 2.56 ( and two running with the Mrs over 4 hours). All I would say is with that pace you can run sub 3. My pb for a 10k is 36 mins & 10 Miles 60 mins. However that’s assuming sufficient training is undertaken. Without it you’ll be a cripple for a few days that’s a fact. Nobody can say exactly what will happen to you once you get past 20 miles …that’s why you do the training and to teach your body to deal with glycogen depletion. The longer you run for the harder it gets. The race is really about the second half which starts around the 20 mile point and is where most people really start to struggle. Advise re pace is worth listening to particularly at London where the first 5 miles or so is quite quick. I know of many horror stories with people starting too fast resulting in a crash & burn later on. I ideally try a 20 miler at 3.10 pace and see how you go but as Manchester is just 2 weeks ago I’d make that the tester…what’s the worst that can happen?

he combines 100+ miles per week with a full-time teaching job and a young family. That’s proper dedication from him and his family

I could naff off and do tons of training even though I have a young family and a full time job, but my wife and kids would suffer. So that chap’s family must take some of the credit I reckon.

Right, it’s on.

This weekend’s plan is to go find some flattish roads in Wharfedale and run:
30min at 7:45
30min at 7:25
60min at 7:05
30min at 6:55
10min staggering to warm down

22 miles in 2h40 and a lot of pain.

Yasso 800s sound interesting. Is it a bizarre coincidence or does it really work? I guess it’s a useful benchmark either way.

And yes, I’m not looking forward to the last 6 miles! My wife says I must enjoy the pain or I wouldn’t bother. I’ll use Jens Voigt as inspiration!

Molgrips – Absolutely. His Mrs is also a very quick track/ xc runner. Lots of training is done early/ late.

Sorry but I think you just left your best on the track!

D28boy – Member
Sorry but I think you just left your best on the track!

You might be right but I don’t have the money or time to spend £50 and most of a Sunday on running a race based on a punt. I want the confidence that I can do it.

(Maybe I’ll round it down a bit!)

It’s just my opinion fwiw…I don’t think you have enough recovery time (two weeks)if you are putting in any sort of effort on the training run.I hope you have fun though & smash the time you’re looking for!

I think you could have a pop, but you don’t really know. 16 miles is a long way, but a long way short of 26. A lot of people blow up in that last 5-10 miles, and that’s where you haven’t trained. I don’t do a lot of mileage and have an ultra in 4 weeks. I’ll be in strictly bodging territory and my time won’t reflect my (much more modest) 10k time. More 3h+ runs needed. My mate is in pretty good shape for London and she has 5 or 6 20+ milers under her belt. That seems about right.

Start slower than you think – I passed 80 people on Whernside and a pile more on Ingleborough on the 3P.

Are there no other marathons later on you could try for?

D28boy – Member
It’s just my opinion fwiw

It’s a valid opinion though – you’ve been there and done it.

stever – Member
More 3h+ runs needed

When I run a marathon properly this is what I’ll do. This race is just a one-off (no others fit with cutoff dates for GFA).

My problem is that I want to both prove that I can run for 3 hours and prove that I can run the required pace. But: For this run I don’t want to run for 3 hours as this will be full race distance. And I don’t want to do lots of race-pace miles as this won’t be much time on my feet.

The plan above is a bit of a best-of-both-worlds – some slow running for time on my feet and some race pace running when tired to simulate the later stages of the race. 22 miles is a bit further than I would like though and I may shave it to 20. Or even 18.

Thanks for your thoughts

I guess you’ll find out then! I can see what you’re thinking with your plan, just don’t do yourself too much mischief this weekend. Mostly you’ll just be gaining confidence, rather than actual fitness this late. Like I say, I’m just a punter, specialising in ‘just enough’ training 🙂

Problem is that my Mrs doens’t do anything that would require her to leave the house for several hours on her own, and doesn’t really want to. When the kids are in bed she wants to hang out with me, or just go to bed herself.

Problem for who?! My Mrs is similar so I incorporate 80% of my running training into my morning commutes. Being time-poor is how I stumbled across intervals.

Now I’ve shown her that it works, 1) she’s starting to try it herself and has lost half a stone in 2 weeks with no effort, and 2) she’s more open to the idea of longer runs for some proper mara training next year. She’s setting me a 2:45 target though…

Problem for me, since I mentioned my Mrs 🙂

I do training on commutes when I have a commute, which is rarely. Mostly it’s intervals late at night, fortunately Cardiff pool is open late on Mondays and Thursdays.

So how is it going Teaboy?

I did 2:51 with a longest run of around 12. I ran it with a friend with the sole intention of running under 3. In reality I could probably have broken 2:40 but thats speculation. I ran the last 10 in nder an hour then won a 3000m race in 9:10 2 days later so I was in good shape.

I was running my 12’s close to 70 mins with a total per week of over 50.

Also bear in mind Emil Zatopek won the Olympic marathon on JUST intervals.

I wasn’t asking you ! But well done btw

I was responding to the OP 😳

Horses for course teaboy. I go for a more conventional approach but a mate of mine ran 3:32 on normal training and then year later ran 3:03. The only difference was second time round he did hardly any long runs. He spent nearly all his time on interval sessions and speed work plus lots of Yasso’s. Totally unscientific sample size, I know, but just goes to show there are more than one way to skin a cat.

Teaboy

If I am right yesterday was the Manchester Marathon.

Were you there? Did you go sub-3? Did you do less training than Jedwood?

Do tell all.

I heard about some very competent marathon runners all but crying by the end yesterday… The rain, wind and temperature conditions here yesterday were horrific.

Thanks for the interest!

I didn’t get there and am bloody annoyed about it.

I did the big training run but limited it to 20 miles. The run itself actually felt ok (though the legs took a couple of days to loosen off) and I had every confidence that I’d be sub-3, never mind 3.10…

…then my 2-year old infected me with a horrible chesty cough which, 2 weeks later, is showing no signs of buggering off. As a consolation prize I’ve entered the Leeds Half but I haven’t run in over 2 weeks.

The other possible maras are Edinburgh and Windermere (but these clash with camping in France) or a couple in Kent and Cheltenham (way too far to go to ponce round the roads).

So it’s a more conventional longer-term project of Leeds Half, then Abbey Dash 10k (target 34:30), then Brass Monkey Half (target 1:17), then London (via ballot) or Windermere/ Edinburgh.

By the way – the 2013 ballot opened today. If you haven’t got an entry in , be quick!

Can’t imagine anyone with a flattering time from yesterday!

lister11 – Member
Can’t imagine anyone with a flattering time from yesterday!

It does sound a bit hellish! A bit of PR needed by the organisers, or there could be a mass boycott of their future events by the sounds of the reports.

Andi Jones entered the day before and came 2nd in 2:20-something after 2:16 the week before in London. Dave Norman was well clear.

Bad luck, there’s always another. I did 8 or 9 yesterday morning in a jacket and got pretty miserable. I can imagine you could have got into mischief racing in just a vest. Bloke from club did 3h15 on his first marathon, not been running that long. He’ll go far that kid 🙂

Hard luck.

The Abbey Dash and Brass Monkey are both quick races (watch out for the nasty pull up onto the flyover at 9k on the Abbey Dash). The Brass Monkey fills up very quickly when entries open sometime in October or November. It might be worth bookmarking Knavesmire Harriers and keeping an eye open to make sure you get in.

The Abbey Dash

Did 32.20 there many years ago. Bit boring IIRC mainly dual carriageway